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The Real Sinister Side of Forced Continuity

The Real Sinister Side of Forced Continuity

Used car salesRant warn­ing: what fol­lows may offend some peo­ple. But I wanted to throw in my three cents on the topic of “forced con­ti­nu­ity,” which seems to be the sub­ject of a lot of debate these days.

Sev­eral well-​​known mar­keters have made offers of late with forced con­ti­nu­ity. What it means is, the intended prod­uct you want to buy can only be pur­chased when you buy another (often, a con­tin­u­ous sub­scrip­tion) billed to your account every month or so until you cancel.

Forced con­ti­nu­ity is noth­ing new. (In direct mar­ket­ing, they call these “Til For­bid” offers.) It’s another type of offer, pure and sim­ple. It’s mar­ket­ing. And there’s noth­ing wrong with that. What’s wrong is not the way the offer is made.

The real prob­lem is its lack of transparency.

But that’s not what I want to rant about today.

What a lot of peo­ple seem to be miss­ing here (and some­thing my bril­liant wife brought to my atten­tion, which makes per­fect sense to me), is that there is a deeper, much darker side to this whole thing.

Some­thing all mar­keters need to be aware of…

First off, I was caught in the mid­dle myself when I hastily pro­moted an offer last week, which I failed to inves­ti­gate and inform my audi­ence about, because I took for granted that the marketer’s offer in ques­tion was clear.

(I’ve been told that it has since been fixed.)

Nev­er­the­less, that was my fault.

Amid the flurry of abu­sive hate email, being called every name “in the book,” and the loss of many sub­scribers on my list (which are to a degree under­stand­able), I apol­o­gized for it.

But my mis­take aside, whether the sales copy is clear or not is not the issue I want to focus on. Being clear is sim­ply good busi­ness prac­tice. It’s also com­mon sense.

Specif­i­cally, there’s a dif­fer­ence between optional, forced, and hid­den con­ti­nu­ity. The first one I agree with. The sec­ond one I don’t mind. But the last one is the one I despise.

It’s also the one that’s illegal.

Some mar­keters fail to prop­erly inform the cus­tomer in their copy, and some­times they skill­fully hide the fine print until the last minute, just enough to be bor­der­line “legal.”

My opin­ion?

You need to be trans­par­ent. You need to be clear in your offer. And you need great copy (yes, great copy­writ­ing can eth­i­cally per­suade peo­ple to accept your con­ti­nu­ity offer, when done right).

Above all, you need to be above board. Why? Because the gold is not in your list, as many mar­keters sug­gest. It’s in your rela­tion­ship with your list. Big difference.

But whether forced con­ti­nu­ity in itself is a good or bad thing, or whether it’s legal or ille­gal, is not the issue I want to focus on, either.

There’s plenty of debate going on right now dis­cussing those issues, on blogs and forums, many of which are beyond the scope of what I want to tell you today.

I’m not a lawyer, and I cer­tainly know that, legal­ity aside, there’s a ques­tion of whether or not it is eth­i­cal in the first place. (I do believe it can be done eth­i­cally and trans­par­ently so that it’s a win-​​win for both sides.)

What really both­ers me is the stigma it creates.

That’s the prob­lem I have with all of this.

Matt Bacak and Joel Comm, two mar­keters who are at the cen­ter of the recent forced con­ti­nu­ity con­tro­versy, are friends of ours. We pro­moted for them in the past, and they in turn pro­moted for us or will be pro­mot­ing for us (such as our new Suc­cess Chef train­ing sys­tem), which we are deeply grate­ful for.

Matt is not only a great friend but also a client of ours. I wrote copy for him in the past. My wife takes care of a lot of his out­sourc­ing work. We spoke at sev­eral of Matt’s sem­i­nars. Here we are hold­ing Matt’s new­born baby a few years ago.

As for Joel Comm, he, too, is a friend. In fact, my wife and I were the first ones to intro­duce Joel Comm to the Inter­net mar­ket­ing sem­i­nar community.

We intro­duced him to the audi­ence while we were on stage at a sem­i­nar two years ago, because we bun­dled his Adsense course with our offer at the time. We even paid Joel out of our own pock­ets for all the copies we sold that day.

As far as their approach is con­cerned, I do appre­ci­ate their attempts to push the enve­lope, which is admirable. It also opens the doors to be cre­ative, pro­vid­ing new ideas for mar­keters to make offers online.

As Paul Han­cox stated in his report, The Secrets of a 10% Con­ver­sion (which I highly rec­om­mend), the most impor­tant part of a saleslet­ter to test is not the head­line but the offer. And forced con­ti­nu­ity is sim­ply a dif­fer­ent type of offer.

Forced con­ti­nu­ity aside, one can learn a lot by watch­ing how these mar­keters mar­ket them­selves. Their use of video is one of them, for example.

But the biggest prob­lem I have with all of this is this…

It may be bor­der­line eth­i­cal, but being “bor­der­line” is just enough to cause a lot of ani­mos­ity and resent­ment. Those feel­ings of ill-​​will and hos­til­ity are going to be a prob­lem these mar­keters will have to deal with, and that’s their challenge.

Believe me, Matt and Joel are far from being the bad guys. As ser­vice providers for close to 20 years, we’ve seen it all. And trust me, we’ve seen a lot worse.

For exam­ple, there are some mar­keters out there who not only make their con­ti­nu­ity offers hid­den, but also make it tremen­dously dif­fi­cult for cus­tomers to can­cel their sub­scrip­tions and obtain refunds.

On pur­pose.

Those are the worst, if you ask me.

(Mak­ing your cus­tomers jump through hoops to can­cel their orders, not hon­or­ing your guar­an­tees, or refus­ing to refund them, is just bad busi­ness all around, whether you used forced con­ti­nu­ity or not.)

But what some mar­keters — the ones who use ques­tion­able and poten­tially harm­ful tac­tics — may not be cog­nizant about is how these feel­ings will affect oth­ers and our indus­try as a whole.

In other words, it gives Inter­net mar­keters a bad rep­u­ta­tion. It gives all of us a bad name. It cre­ates ani­mos­ity and mis­trust toward all mar­keters, good or bad. And now, legit­i­mate mar­keters have to strug­gle twice as hard to sell and make an hon­est liv­ing in this business.

I know this from per­sonal experience.

I fought hard to pro­tect the integrity of good direct response copy­writ­ers out there. The direct mar­ket­ing indus­try is not made up of just a bunch of scammy, carnival-​​barking, long-​​copy, hype-​​mongering fraud­sters, as some purport.

Believe me, when I first opened my copy­writ­ers forum, there were some amaz­ing, crazy, and some­times pretty heated debates going on!

But some bad apples can indeed rot the bas­ket. And they have. Why do you think the used-​​car busi­ness has such a bad rep­u­ta­tion, for instance?

If you were to go into the used car busi­ness your­self, and you’re a legit­i­mate busi­ness owner with the intent to con­duct your busi­ness in an hon­est, pro­fes­sional, and trans­par­ent man­ner, you have your work cut out for you.

You see, we’re fac­ing the same problem.

Mar­keters push the enve­lope. They think out­side the box to come up with new and cre­ative ways to sell. This is good. In prin­ci­ple. But the prob­lem is, some of them just don’t care. They will push the enve­lope too far.

Some even jus­tify the back­lash as pub­lic­ity. “Bad pub­lic­ity is good pub­lic­ity,” they say. Neg­a­tive pub­lic­ity is good when it is ill-​​founded or based on opin­ion alone (because you can eas­ily fight those, espe­cially if you’re a good copywriter).

And con­tro­versy does sell.

But it’s not good when it is true and well-​​founded — that is, when it is based on bad busi­ness, such as some­thing ille­gal or unethical.

Sure, con­tro­versy cre­ates curios­ity (and sales do result). I’m a big fan of con­tro­versy. But con­tro­versy alone, or con­tro­versy cre­ated by bad or ques­tion­able busi­ness prac­tices, is like a drug.

It’s short-​​lived. It requires con­stant injec­tions — injec­tions of new mar­kets, new prod­ucts, or new offers — to stay “high” (high sales vol­ume, that is). It forces mar­keters to keep fight­ing fires rather than grow­ing their busi­nesses. And it cre­ates ill will, which affects future sales and…

… Kills it for the rest of us.

Here’s an analogy.

A snake oil sales­man comes to town. He sells his magic elixir that promises results after a period of time. After he sells his entire lot, in the dead of night he packs up and skips town before peo­ple real­ize he just scammed them.

Now, obvi­ously, he can’t go back to the same town to sell other stuff. He is forced to move to the next town to keep earn­ing money.

Here’s where it gets mucky.

The next time another sales­man comes to town, per­haps a legit­i­mate one sell­ing a legit­i­mate prod­uct, their sales will fal­ter as a result of that town’s pre­vi­ous bad expe­ri­ence. Peo­ple will instantly dis­trust them. They will refuse to buy if not chase them right out of town.

In those days, word got around by horse­back. So the snakeoil sales­man had no trou­ble going from town to town scam­ming others.

Today, with the help of the Inter­net how­ever, you don’t need to be a vic­tim like those towns­folk to be wary and skep­ti­cal of new sales­peo­ple. You just need an Inter­net connection.

Again, Joel and Matt are good guys. They put out great prod­ucts, and I like what they’re try­ing to do in terms of pro­mo­tion and marketing.

It’s cre­ative. Done right, it can be both legal and eth­i­cal. And tremen­dously prof­itable, too.

But done wrong or done poorly, next time another mar­keter makes a sim­i­lar offer peo­ple are going to think twice about mak­ing a pur­chas­ing decision.

Now, remem­ber that the caveat emp­tor applies (let the buyer beware). I’m just as guilty of this. I should have con­ducted my own due dili­gence, just as much as we all should.

How­ever, if you’re a mar­keter think­ing of offer­ing forced con­ti­nu­ity, think twice before you do. Remem­ber the dif­fer­ence between “forced con­ti­nu­ity” and “hid­den con­ti­nu­ity.” Be clear. Be trans­par­ent. And serve your cus­tomers well.

Oth­er­wise, when it’s not done prop­erly, forced con­ti­nu­ity can cause a lot more dam­age in its wake. Why? Not because it is bad in itself, or the fact that it leaves a bad taste in people’s mouths.

But because, bot­tom line, it affects us all as marketers.

(And remem­ber, some of us mar­keters are your joint-​​venture part­ners. Some of us are your affil­i­ates. And yes, some of us are your clients, too.)

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  • Excellent post, Michel - well said!
  • Lillian
    You need to be aware of Matt Babak!

    He may be open about his continuity program but not with his current Matt Bacak retires.

    Are you familiar with the Matt Bacak retire promotion that he's promoting via affiliates?

    It's where he is offering his complete $5,500 Internet Seminar for $1

    Matt says "I'm going to give you my seminar material. All of it... For just $1." It's Total BS! He leads you to believe you're getting the complete seminar for $1..what he does is trick you into buying the seminar after you give your credit card info!

    Go to:

    https://mattbacakretires.com/ & you see for yourself.

    Read the hidden purchase agreement at the bottom of page regarding the purchase of his product. You will see how Matt tricks others into accidentally ordering his matt retires system for $497 non-refundable!

    This is deceptive & I'm going to report him to the FTC.

    I'm very disappointed in Russel Brunson & Matt Bacak for deceiving warriors.
  • Hey Michel,

    Matt's a friend of mine too but I didn't promote his latest offering because quite frankly, I hate forced continuity programs (from the position of a customer).

    I know they work but I figure if they irritate me, they probably irritate a lot of others. I know marketing is always "intrusive" to a degree but looking at the backlash, I'm glad I passed.

    Hope you and Sylvie are well,
    Kevin
  • Sam
    Hi got roped into a Matt Bacak continuity program a while back. The worst of it was how poor the content was. Rehashed stuff that can be found in much free or low cost content. Nothing worth what he was charging.
  • Alvin
    I think this is a great lesson for all internet marketers. Don't because of the desire to make money and commit 'ethical' mistake

    Having said that, everyone is a human and we all make mistakes. Let us forgive those we apologized and learn for their mistake.

    And for all who continue to defense themselves for their wrong doing and continue implement such unethical practice, time will catch up with them and they will soon lose their reputation and customers. (it is not worth it).

    Relationship is where the money is...not the list
  • These issues with forced continuity in the Internet marketing community is nothing new and has been going on since late 2007:

    http://warriorforum.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_I...

    http://www.copywritersboard.com/marketing-discu...

    Yet these highly respected (at least they use to be) A-list marketers are trying the same tricks. I don't know if this will be enough of a wake up call or not since it doesn't appear the controversy that brewed up in August 2007 and January 2008 dissuade them from trying to sneak it on by.

    What leaves even a worse taste in my mouth is how they affected the reputation of good people like you and others who promoted this unaware of the forced continuity. And, who are now receiving flaming arrows into their in-box. If they want to tarnish their own reputation go for it but at least respect your affiliates. I don't have a huge list and this could have burned me big time with my small but loyal list. I'm just glad I didn't get around to promote it. I don't care how good the material is. I'm not getting near it with a ten foot pole.
  • @Kevin:

    Kevin, I hear you loud and clear. And me too, I'm not a big fan of continuity programs myself. But your comment is, in fact, proving my point. You said, "I hate forced continuity programs (from the position of a customer)." And that "they irritate you" (and irritate others).

    So true. And you probably do hate them because you were either the victim of, or have seen others become victims of, badly done continuity offers. And that's my problem.

    When you're clear and above board, and you don't try to hide it, I think it's fine. And I'm speaking from a customer's standpoint. (In fact, I implied this in the very last line of my rant above.)

    Some people buy products for the premiums alone. Just as some will be forced into a continuity program to get their hands on the main product alone. You either buy it or you don't. But either way, it's still a choice.

    To me, offering a continuity program is not the problem. It's hiding it that is. Because when you're hiding it, you're removing that choice from your customers.

    But that is not the real point I'm trying to get across, here. The point is that those who abuse or hide continuity offers are killing not only legitimate forced continuity offers but also legitimate marketers, too.

    That's my biggest beef.

    @Lillian:

    I get what you're saying. But in Matt's defense, he has since fixed it. And if you cancelled, I'm sure you got your cancellation and refund promptly. (Some have reported this to me, as Matt in known to be quick to support his customers.)

    Admittedly, however, I don't agree with Matt's approach. And I didn't like the way it was presented. I should have checked into it first, myself. But that's my fault. However, I still don't think it's a bad thing. It's just not my cup of tea.

    But something you said is confusing to me. You said, "Read the hidden purchase agreement at the bottom of page." How can you read it if it's hidden?
  • Actually I got full access to Matt's seminar and it really did cost me just $1.

    There was no attempt to trick me into buying his $497 upsell (that was 100% transparent).

    There certainly is a monthly newsletter subscription you can cancel any time (that's the forced continuity).

    I agree 100% that you should be transparent about forced continuity.

    Common sense tells you that if you want paid subscribers to continue paying you they need to be sold in advance on the idea.

    Otherwise you'll just be flooded with cancellations and refund requests.

    Kindest regards,
    Andrew Cavanagh
  • @Everyone:

    Please refrain from making any personal attacks (I've deleted a few, and I'm not singling out anyone in particular). And let's leave the quality of the product itself out of the debate, including mentioning specific names of marketers.

    What I'm trying to communicate here -- and the main purpose of my entire post -- is how such tactics can harm us marketers as a whole. That's why I posted my rant. And it's something we all need to be aware of.

    How such things can affect us all is really the crux of the matter.
  • Lillian
    Michael, read the post on the warrior forum.

    What Matt has resorted to doing is tricking you into buting his $497 Matt Retires Seminar.

    After you sped $1 & submit your credit card Matt has a yes button automatically clicked on for you if you accidentally forget to uncheck it then you are charged $497 with no money back guarantee.

    Read the purchase agreement it says it there fully but at the bottom of page where its not transparent to you. I reun a successful continuity program with no problems as the person is forced to read the easy to read terms & conditions. Nothing is hidden & no trickery is involved.

    I realize the lifetime value of my customer & want them to be happy & not pissed off in any away.
  • Joshua Uebergang
    I believe those who use such tactics see their customers as a mass not caring for the people they rip off. Much like Mother Teresa when she said, "If I look at the mass, I will never act. If I look at the one, I will."

    A few days ago I had experience with a supplement company, Adenotrex, that nicely demonstrates what marketers should be doing, instead of deception: Making information transparent and also having a persuasive group of cut and paste emails that support can use to retain customers cancelling their membership. There's no jumping through hoops: just a company selling you the benefits of retaining membership, what you'll miss out on if you cancel, and a willingness to bend the rules to retain members.
  • @Joshua:

    Excellent point!

    Edited to add: My wife Sylvie is big on that subject. In fact, if you watched the 70-minute video tutorial at http://www.successchef.com/free/ she says so eloquently: "People are not just a bunch of nameless, faceless wallets. They are your customers."
  • I write about an experience I had with this back in December with regards to a "free CD" offer (the S & H definitely generated revenue).

    The sales letter states:

    "When you order your CD, you will receive four (4) bonuses worth a total of $539.95 which includes a free report, free strategy session, free newsletter and our product creation blueprint."

    No mention of the monthly subscription there.

    Then there are 4 bullet points "hyping" the "free" bonuses.

    Here's the third bullet point from the top (edited):

    Bonus #3: When you get your CD today you'll also receive a free 7-day trial membership into _____ so you can immediately put this listbuilding information to work for you and your bank account. Plus, if after the 7 -day trial period you decide _____ isn't for you you can cancel your $29.95 membership at any time! (Value $29.95)

    When you click through to the order page, again there is no mention of the monthly membership fee, just a bullet point third from the top.

    But this time the wording changed.

    The bullet point is now shorter and says that you are "entitled" to a free 7-day trial of ____that is worth $29.95. And that's it.

    Is this deceptive?

    In my opinion, you're bloody well right it is.
  • Thanks, Michel - for articulating the correct point of view so very well in your initial blog post; you've perfectly described the truth of the situation. Many of us are big fans of continuity -- it's just the *hidden* continuity (or non-FTC compliant "nonconspicuous", which means buried in mouseprint, which is only slightly less egregious), that is bad ethics and bad marketing. The key as you've so correctly brought up is being completely transparent and open with your customers about exactly what happens.

    Hiding the continuity by not disclosing it in the initial salesletter, and then only changing the salesletter to disclose it AFTER a lot of complaints surface, is non-FTC compliant and dishonest, and that's what we've seen here recently from several marketers, none of which I will ever do business with in this lifetime. Hiding continuity in mouseprint, buried as a bonus, is borderline and still not ethical -- it would be BEST to offer the product standalone, and add continuity as an upsell or other offer, as a separate offer that's clearly delineated on the sales page.

    In my book, and that of the FTC, hidden forced continuity is illegal and needs to stop. Right now. Some of us DO contact the FTC and AG's office and file class actions - so it's not worth it, for those who would copy this unethical practice.

    A reputation, once damaged, is lost forever. Like that one marketer (who I'll refrain from naming) who had a "retiring from IM' pitch years ago, only to resurface 18 months later with something else - his repuation, as those of the marketers who've been dishonest with hidden continuity, is shot forever and will be remembered for years. How much lost sales and relationship with the market, is that worth?

    Stop Hidden Forced Continuity Now. It's an FTC violation and will have some of us aggressively going after you in court and/or via the alphabet agencies.

    -k
  • Thanks for all the kind posts and thoughts.

    If you need any help with your
    order then just email us at:

    mattbacakretires [at] gmail.com

    Someone will get back to you
    as quickly as possible during
    regular business hours. "EST"

    Matt Bacak
  • Michel,

    I'm working here online, applying to a very high profile Executive MBA program after 36 years of sales and marketing experience working for 6 major Fortune 500 companies and the second essay question goes something like this:

    "We, the XXXX College of Business community, aspire to the highest ethical standards and will hold each other accountable to them. We will not engage in any action that is improper or that creates the appearance of impropriety in our academic lives, and we intend to hold to this standard in our future careers."

    The XXXX MBA program considers the Honor Code to be a central part of the culture; it is one small signal to the business world that we take character, integrity, and honor seriously. Can you describe a situation in which you found yourself that challenged your integrity? How did you resolve the problem?

    Unfortunately I've been involved in several situations where executives of a company did dishonest things that affected my career and also my reputation. And to tell you the truth, my good name was and is more valuable to me than just about anything in business.

    Certain marketers will try and take advantage of unknowing consumers in an effort to feather their own nests. And there are plenty who will just plain steal your materials. Wasn't that the case with your friend and client?

    Wasn't his material being "ripped off"? And wasn't that the reasoning your friend and client used for reducing his entire body of work to a paltry sum that anyone with half a brain would be willing to pay. If the intent was to get back at the bad guys for ripping him off, why did he set up several "let's see how many of these "dumb customers" can jump through a series of hoops without getting entangled in a

    Skullduggery will always get you nowhere! If your intent is to try and trick

    When I saw executives pulling all kinds of stupid stunts in order to pull one over on MY CUSTOMERS, I headed for the door. I certainly didn't want these folk's dubous, scandalous and somewhat illegal actions reflecting on me or my business.

    Michel, if I were you I would carefully consider who I promoted and who I didn't.

    After reading this blog over twice, it would seem as if you're trying to defend your friend and client's actions on the technical merit of not being illegal.

    I don't want to give you advice but by now I'm sure you've spent enough time trying to defend your friend and client's actions and some of the ill will has probably run off on you, through your lack of due diligence. And that's a fair mistake.

    But I would caution you to stay away from anyone or anything who could in the least bit tarnish your image and your business - friend, client, associate, JV partner, whoever.

    These folks are a little too slick for me.

    If you can't sell your product on it's own merit and have to resort to "stupid marketing tricks" offering a ridiculous "come on suckers, I've got you price" only to try and manipulate people into buying the offer back for 500% of the original offer, you deserve to go to marketing "hell" and stay there with the rest of the consumate losers, confidence artists, unprofessional brain-dead sales scum that ruins things for the legitimate folks who have to work twice as hard to overcome all of the dumb asses out there who only care about one thing - themselves.

    Michel, if I were you, I would get as far away from your friend and client.

    Just because you're holding his baby, did not mean that it stopped him from trying to pull a fast one over on your own customers and readers.

    Con artists are so named because of the "confidence" they try to establish with their victims.

    I'd be heading for the hills from this relationship if I were you.
  • Lillian
    Strange my post on the warrior forum about Matt Bacak got deleted after generating too many hits & feedback exposing Matt & his marketing tactics.
  • IN REGARD TO KEN CALHOUN'S COMMENTS.

    Ken, well said. I like your idea of making a call to the FTC and AG's offices.

    Ridding the landscape of these "unscroupulous marketers" by holding their feet to the fire legally will stop their nonsense and only make it better for the legitimate folks.
  • In my defense... It's very clear...very clear.

    It says it on the sales letter, it says it on the
    order from. It says it on the thank you page, on
    the landing page and on the thank you email.

    And we stick a BIG fat yellow sticky note on
    the first issue that they receive in the mail.

    This is the site everyone is going to:
    https://mattbacakretires.com/real-proof.php

    If you need any help with your
    order then just email us at:

    mattbacakretires @ gmail.com

    Someone will get back to you
    as quickly as possible during
    regular business hours. "EST"
  • I saw the continuity before I purchased for a dollar, I bought anyway, and I plan on paying the continuity. I saw Matt speak once and it was fantastic. Can't wait to see what he has in store for me.

    Some readers skip a lot of information when purchasing. I suppose since I write copy I knew where to look for the important stuff. But I think calling Matt a con artist is way too bold - as people often are behind a computer.
  • @Ron:

    Point taken.

    However, I did defend Matt because I know him personally, and I know from past experiences that Matt is an upstanding guy. But Matt is a big boy. He can defend himself. In fact, Matt has personally emailed me to let me know that they are doing what they can to fix this.

    But whether his latest effort is without reproach is obviously arguable, and I personally am not a fan of it. I think he made a mistake, and I admit that I made one, too.

    But it's not the point I was trying to make.

    It's not him I'm trying to defend. It's the forced continuity offer (which I still think is not bad when done properly), and, more importantly, other legitimate marketers who are vilified and lose business because of poorly done offers, let alone offers by real scammers.

    My point was also to look at the bigger picture, and what we can learn from all this, rather than blame others. My attempt was to educate on why one should think twice before making similar offers -- and why and how to do it right.
  • @ Lillian

    I really don't understand your problem.

    Everything in the $497 package is in the digital.

    Did you watch the video?

    Did you login?

    Dang dude.
  • Lillian
    Matt sorry about offending you. It was just real annoying to get blasted with all your offers BLAM! BLAM! BLAM!

    It felt like I ran into a porn site. Very annoying. If you get other complaints...Then I would really consider confirming their orders.
  • @Lillian:

    Please refrain from personal attacks. I'm deleting your comments. If you have a beef with Matt, as they say in bars, "take it outside." (Meaning, take it up with him.) Remember the rule above: please don't attack, demean, or bully. I appreciate your help.
  • Just a quick reminder.

    This is not a discussion board where people bicker back and forth. This is Michel's blog.

    The point of this post was discussing the differences between...

    Continuity
    Forced Continuity
    Hidden Continuity

    That's it. Michel's point was to say that there is a HUGE difference between the three, and people often get confused and start hammering on marketers who use forced continuity, when the real problem lies in marketers who used HIDDEN continuity, which is transparent and unable to be canceled.

    Neither Matt nor Joel use Hidden Continuity and Michel did not say that they did.

    Michel's commentary is on the unethical practice of Hidden Continuity. Period.

    As Matt has so clearly stated, if you have specific comments to make about Matt's continuity program, please use the customer support service address he provided. I can personally attest to the fact that Matt provides exceptional customer support, and always makes sure his customer's needs are met.

    Please restrict comments on Michel's blog to the THEORETICAL application of continuity, rather than blasting specific people.

    Here's a quote to remind us all of what is important...

    "Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people." -Eleanor Roosevelt
  • Lillian
    Sylvie Fortin, I hope you did mistake my comments about Matts actions as an attack on Matt-I'm attacking his actions- which does affect people.

    Did you order Matts $1 seminar? If not then please do it to experience what others go through.

    Its like walking through a marketing landmine. I guarantee if Michael used the same upsell strategies within his market that it generate alot of negative feedback.
  • I have been a fan of Matt's for a few years now. I am also a hater of hidden continuity programs that are buried in fine print paragraphs deep.

    I hope Matt changed the site to make the offer more obvious because of an original oversight, rather than as a reaction to all the complaints.

    I would love to defend him, but I have my doubts because this is the second time I got caught up in one of his hidden agendas.

    When I found out about it, through numerous blogs, I went back to the site and could find no information as to how to cancel, nor was it reported to paypal as $1 the 1st month and so much every month after...

    Not to pick on Matt, becaue there are several marketers out there using these techniques.. and personally It tells me that either they have to resort to those techniques to make money or they have just become greedy... but the bottom-line is that they ruin it not only for themselves but like Michael so elegantly put, for the rest of us, who are trying to be reputable.

    I know after being caught by this trap with the same marketer twice... I will never do buisiness with them again, not will I ever recommend him to any of my students or at any of my seminars...

    I hope these marketers will see the error of their ways... It is hard enough out here to earn trust of our clients without being attached with a car salesman sign.
  • @ Lillian

    It seems that your issue has more to do with the idea of the One Time Offer (or Multiple One Time Offers) he chose to implement, rather than the continuity issue. In reviewing your comments, it seems (and correct me if I'm wrong) that your problem is with the "after the $1 sale" process he used.

    In which case, the problem has little to do with the continuity aspect and has a lot more to do with his choice of trying to sell even more on the back end.

    I have never had a problem with anyone attempting to sell me something. I'm a big girl and can take it. If I don't want it, I simply say no thanks. But if I am not pitched when a product may be useful to me, I will never be presented with the opportunity to make a choice.

    I love choices. I love living in a world where I am presented with a plethora of choices every day. It sharpens my thinking skills and gives me opportunities to be exposed to products I may enjoy.

    I also love watching great marketers and learning from them. When I encounter a new way to promote, I watch closely to see if it works. If it does, I research to see why it works.

    If a marketing method fails, I watch closely to see why it failed.

    But what I don't do is begrudge the pitch. Whether I like it or not, I always find something I can learn from it.

    And that is the beauty of marketing.
  • Lillian
    The problem is that Matt does not allow you to correct the order error if you mistakenly click the button as the order options are prefilled. Its kind of like those pop ups that say click cancel which really means the opposite.

    Thank God Amazon & Ebay ask for confirmation or to confirm your order.
  • Nicole
    Lillian/Mark Schrader, I work for Matt and I answered your email through our customer service email.
    Why would you write that post when I VOIDED your accidental order in 2 hours of your email to us? And $497 may be a lot of money to you - it is to many - it is not a big product for us. In fact, Matt never sold the home study course for less than $997. The HSC is not his "seminar." It is the recordings of the seminar that cost $5500.
    Matt gives clients many opportunities to opt-out before they are ever charged - forced not hidden continuity. What no one understands is that having the reiteration of the continuity plan details on the order portion of the form is typically done automatically for us when we create the form in our usual software. With the new technology used on this salesletter/order form, a programmer adjusted the order form not knowing what mattered and Matt didn't notice. When it was pointed out, Matt had it changed.
    And before I saw this post I answered Lillian/Mark letting him that the order was voided and I asked him a question. If Matt were trying to "trick" you why wouldhe have sent the confirmation email that you replied on to cancel this order? Instead of an answer I got contradictory, circular logic (which isn't easy to accomplish).
    I guess Sylvie is right in that so many, are so trained not to trust that they don't give you a chance to nicely give them good service. Or maybe some people just like to yell ad threaten others for fun.

    BTW, we have received many thank yous...
  • @Everyone:

    I've just recovered a bunch of comments from the spam and moderation queues. Some of you might be wondering why your comment is not being posted, well, those are the reasons. The culprit is the spam-fighting functions of this blog, over which I have no control.

    So if you post a comment, it may be because it's held in moderation, and I need to approve it (or not). So if you post a comment and it doesn't appear, please be patient -- some people are posting their comment two to three times.

    By the same token, I'm going to bed soon and must wake up early tomorrow to run some tests at the hospital -- my staff won't be handling this job until they come in to work later in the morning.

    So if you comment tonight and your comment is held in moderation, it will probably be posted tomorrow, late in the morning.

    Thanks for understanding.
  • Michael,

    My first time on your site, via a link from Dr.Mani on Twitter.

    This is an excellent topic and I am glad to see it covered here having had experience of the 'hidden continuity' in the past myself.

    It was the sort of product that I would have requested if it could be added to one of my own products (a great match) - but instead of progressing with a potential JV, I delete every email from this person.

    Looking forward to nosing around your site and will watch your video etc.

    Many thanks
    AnneMarie
  • phew.... obviously a very touchy subject. I thinky ou've put your thoughts across very well Michael and I agree with you. There's nothing wrong with creative marketing it's the way it's done is the problem. I have to confess when I first read your email apologizing for the email that started it all ! I was a bit cynical and thought oh yeah right sure you didn't realise the effect it was going to have ! BUT now having read this well thought out post I believe you did it in good faith and that you certainly have the best interests of your list in mind and yes I fully agree the gold is in the "relationship" with your list.

    rgds from sunny Dublin. - When are you and Sylvie coming over this side of the pond ! !
  • Dave Graska
    Borderline ethical? Maybe. But is it "right" and would you market that way to your mother? I wouldn't.

    Do you want one time transactions with people, at any cost, or do you want to build clients (Jay Abraham says a client is someone under your care and protection) who value and revere you because you're helping them?

    I had an even worse forced continuity experience last week with a company called FreeRetailRewards Program. I'd use the word "sleazy", but it would be too kind. Frankly, I felt like a cow going down ever narrower chutes to the slaughter.

    Never again. Never again will I get come close to anything that even remotely has the same feel and putrid smell.

    I've been on a lot of sites getting loads of freebies... gotten a lot of value , have made some purchases and plan to buy more.

    But anybody who tricks me once, or tries to... goodby and good riddance.
  • Hey, Michel and Sylvie -

    ***NOTE: This response is not pointed at the ethical and honorable people marketing online [you know who you are.] ***

    Excellent points you and some other make here...

    Let's face facts: Great copy is ‘great' because it both persuades and calls the reader to take a certain action. People who respond typically do so in good faith that what they are reading and/or buying is both honest and honorable, as is their resulting action doing it.

    Sadly, greed and the love of money seem to force otherwise decent sellers to make less-than-decent marketing decisions and implementations. I also think those same 'bad qualities' cause certain buyers to respond in kind...

    My main problems concerning this broader issue seem to resemble yours in the fact of why do decent people with a decent products feel that they need to, or are compelled to, mislead people to achieve their own agenda, sales or otherwise?

    Although I've spent more than half my life in sales and marketing, I learned a VERY valuable lesson early on: "If the truth won't sell it, don't sell it."

    I also have a deep seated belief that [please forgive me if this is crass to anyone -- it does paint a solid mental picture] -- "Trust is like virginity... you can only break it once."

    For some reason, certain people online have lost that age old ideal that "a good name is to be treasured above riches" as well...

    I particularly liked your 'drug' and 'used car salesmen' analogies above. Sadly, more than a few so-called 'gurus' daily employ 'rape-and-run' marketing, creating a situation where all they care about is the sale, and after they bend you over... they run away fast.

    Tragic, truly tragic, for those of use who actually and really care about other people and will do almost anything reasonable to prove it, is the resulting scenario and situation we face as we are homogenized and stereotyped with those dark-siders and thrown into one big IM ‘scum barrel.'

    I learned years ago, when I offered to coach and train people for free, that is it not wise for an ethical person to take on the hype-monger gang. When the buzz got around concerning my offer [program name and site withheld by me here] certain thugs and gangstas on certain so-called 'big name' boards decided to make me their hobby and started a flame war.

    OMG -- don't ever try to treat people fairly around this bunch of pirates who lay in wait for innocent people to sail by... they resent in a big way your offer to help people and save those folks from wasting their money on their over-priced-guru-coaching programs...

    Well, I apparently did not learn my lesson, so I and a couple of my associates are doing it again. We are now soft-launching a completely new site called "NetFluence University" where we will offer all the content for free... from very basic stuff for beginners to current super-high-level trends [like social bookmarking, optin videos, other really cutting-edge stuff, etc.]

    Caveat – at this time ALL the upcoming NFU content is now and will continue to be free, but at some point in the future we reserve the reasonable right to consider moving all the very high-level advanced stuff into a fee-based program.

    {That was transparent... }

    I hesitate and am a bit conflicted to give the URL here, to avoid anyone thinking this is shameless plug [it isn't] ... and the NFU site is 100% transparent. No one can buy ANYTHING on the NFU site.

    Further, the parent site to NFU [NF] says on its home page up at the top that the reader cannot buy anything yet because we want to earn his or her trust first.

    I would expect certain thugs and gangstas to take us to task for this branding and positioning trying to once again help people for no cost, and my response to those nay-sayers is once again, "Here's a quarter – call someone who cares."

    Any way, Michel and Sylvie -- to close this reply, once again I confirm and affirm your sense of character, honor, integrity, morals, and transparency in your initial ‘sinister dark side' post above. I wish more online people were like you.

    I've known you for years, Michel, and always had the highest respect for not just your excellent work – but for who you really are inside. All you'll ever truly own in this life is ‘your word' ... and I have always thought that you protected yours with integrity.

    With some level of consternation, I'll furnish the 2 URLs I last alluded to just above concerning the free training and the parent site [NFU and NF.] If you wish to redact these URLs, please do so at your discretion.

    Otherwise, some readers here might want to look at the free stuff or watch the continual gyrations of a live authority site being launched.

    Here they are, and they are not affiliate links:

    The free training is at http://www.NetFluenceUniversity.com and the parent site for selling
    Web 2.0-style website authoring software is at http://www.NetFluence.com.

    Biggest Blessings to you both –

    Chip Tarver

    PS -- If any of us has never made a mistake online or off, let's pause for a moment of silence while that ‘Chosen Few' group raises their hands. We are all human. We make mistakes. We should fail fast and fail forward. That said, forgiveness is a powerful force we should also consider when that person in question says, "I'm sorry."
  • Well said Michael, It seems to me that the level of morality in the Internet marketing world has taken a dive in recent months and has hit a low point. There are a number of launches at the moment where the marketer is blatently lying about performance figures, this is not just Hype but complete dishonesty.

    It's about time that some sort of control was exercised or enforced.
  • Welcome to the world of
    Social Media and "Lightning Feedback"...

    knowing that all these "ajustments"...

    will be positive in the long run for the
    benefit of Earth Citizens =>" our customers/clients"...

    For reputation and outstanding customer
    services will have to stand out now more than
    ever for Marketers to thrive (ethics, quality, care,
    testings, feedback, ajustments)...

    And let us not forget to be patient, and forgiving...

    In this fast pace ever changing world
    we are dealing with "human beings"

    in a NOT so perfect world...

    HHE: "Errare humanum est" (= To err is human)

    ---------------------------------
    Food for thought:
    --------------------------------

    I strongly invite you to read Seith Godin...

    latest post titled:


    "You are Right!"

    http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2008/04...


    Fiat Lux

    Cordialement

    Joel Bomane from Sunny Sudden France
  • Hey Michel,

    It's good to see someone else felt the different types of continuity programs needed to be defined. I was starting to think I was the only person who noticed people were migrating towards placing "continuity programs" in the same category as "hidden forced continuity."

    Although my thoughts vary slightly; I think this is a great post. Thanks for taking the time to write about this situation.

    Sean
  • Thanks, Mike, for making it so clear.

    My bad surprises with hidden continuity programs has really left me jaded.

    But I'd rather be jaded than jade others, that's for sure.

    When I do a continuity program with my clients, I'll be clear and up front. I'll be sure to write copy that tells them up front of any intention for continuous billing.
  • Matt,

    No matter how many times you tell yourself you did the right thing, just look around and read all the bad things people have to say about you.

    That's evidence enough that you are using unethical practices.

    Denying it and keeping all the money you made... is going to make you forever remembered as a shady marketer.

    Not the best way to go out in a bang...

    And you should be ashamed of yourself for taking these poor people's money. You should feel downright guilty. But you don't, so maybe everybody's right about you after all.

    Michel, I was shocked to see that offer come from you. But that's okay, at least I think I know your real intentions. You're a good guy.

    Matt Bay-Sack on the other hand... not so much.

    Jason
  • Michel,

    Thank you for taking the time to outline the three different kinds of continuity offers. Regardless of which offer is made (optional, forced, or hidden), the worst to me is when a marketer makes it difficult to cancel a subscription or receive a refund just as you pointed out.

    I don't know Matt Bacak but I have been a subscriber and fan of you for years. I decided to follow up on Matt's order based solely on your recommendation. I honestly don't know what kind of continuity offer was made because I was so beleagured by the page after page of offers, it was like trying to get out of very complicated maze.

    I do try to read the fine print and decipher the best plan of action. In this case, I was completely surprised, after my $1.00 purchase, by the followup email I received informing me that I had been subscribed to his newsletter for X amount. I wondered where that had come from. But more importantly I was NOT concerned because I trusted YOU.

    Here's what I believe caused the biggest problem. Technology. I promptly sent an email to the address provided in the followup letter to cancel the subscription. That email bounced. I know this kind of thing can happen. So I went to Matt's website provided in the followup letter and sent an email to the address provided there. That email bounced as well. Geez!

    Now I had moved into the realm of questioning who I was dealing with that TWO different email addresses did not work? At that point I found the phone number and called. I did get a message that the email issue was being dealt with and should now be fixed.

    So I emailed again and it STILL would not go through. At that point I was exasperated and feeling annoyed at the considerable amount of time I was wasting and wondering how and why you (Michel) would have recommended this guy.

    My point in telling all this is that when technology fails it makes a somewhat complicated marketing approach SEEM to be much worse than it actually is. For a time it seemed as if the offer was a scam and I had no way to cancel it. I have now received confirmation from Matt's customer service reps that my subscription was canceled and all is well.

    However it did leave me with a bad FEELING. And that feeling is not likely to go away for a long time if ever. I still do not know Matt. Michel if you say he is a wonderful person, I believe you. But I am not likely to purchase anything from him in the future because I will always wonder if I'm going to have to go through a major hassle again.

    Thanks for listening.

    Lori
  • Dude you hit the nail on the head.

    Sometimes you gotta learn the hard way.

    But in all seriousness, the best lessons you learn cant come from a book, or video but things you learn along the way. Mistakes made makes you lose short term but win up big longer term.

    keep that in mind and you will always come out on top.

    Cheers

    John
  • I am seeing so much of this recently it makes me wonder whether the guys that are doing this are all trying to recession-proof themselves at the expense of unwary/unsavvy subscribers.

    The idea of hidden forced continuity, making it difficult for us to cancel and/or hoping we forget just so a marketer can keep raking it in - is disgusting.

    What ever happened to providing clearcut, indisputable, unhyped value for the customer? Value that they're willingly participating in - that's not being forced down their throats?

    This is not something that should even be experimented with - just to see how much the market will take.

    BTW, I do think Matt should take a second look at his practices. I too had an experience with his systems a couple of years ago that was unpleasant enough for me to decide to be very careful whenever I saw his name. So much so that no matter who promoted this current offer, I decided that it would likely cost me frustration or disappointment and that I should watch from the sidelines and see if there was fallout.

    Looks like it was a good call.

    Sabrina
    http://CampaignBlasting.com
    A Fun, Safe Way To Do Adwords
  • @Everyone:

    Thank you for your feedback, good and bad. I'm glad that my point is getting across, in that this is affecting us all and to think twice about using hidden tactics.

    @Lori:

    Thank you. Your very last line of your comment says it all: "But I am not likely to purchase anything from him in the future." And that's precisely my point.

    Aside from Matt's (or anyone else's) offer, my point is that poorly done or hidden continuity offers do affect all of us marketers in one way or another. We lose not only customers but also relationships.

    That's lifetime customers.

    And more important, our customers not only lose but they also lose a lot more than you think.

    To me, selling is part of serving your customer. Selling is customer service, plain and simple, in other words. You are offering them something that can enrich their lives or their businesses. And so you OWE it to them to make that offer.

    As copywriter Brian Keith Voiles says so often, "Remember that you are a blessing in their lives." So you owe it to your customers to offer them things -- products, services and solutions -- that will help them.

    On the other hand, not selling them is a disservice. When you fail to make an offer, you are cheating your client. To that I would add, selling them in the wrong way (or against their will) is just as bad if not worse.

    Why? Because you're not only offering a disservice to your customer, you are also cheating them out of all future offers they will NOT buy because of the previous bad experience, including offers by other, legitimate marketers selling products that are perfect for them and with which they can enrich their lives.

    Something to think about.
  • Chris Shallow, Marketing Maven
    A very useful and informative discussion about an important topic. I worked in marketing for 20 years and now teach it at university. One of my favourite definitions of marketing is: "Developing long-lasting mutually profitable relationships". Any situation where the customer feels (and it is what the customer FEELS NOT what the marketer THINKS that matters) it is not profitable for them is not, IMHO, marketing because its no longer MUTUAL This is all about NOT seeing things from the customer's POV (Point Of View) but, instead, falling into the temptation of making easy money through recurring income; i.e the 'relationship' is ONE-SIDED, therefore, it is no longer a relationship. Period.
  • Excellent Post, Michael

    I, too, got caught up in the forced continuity issue last week, after endorsing Joel's product.

    I reacted quickly with a blog post and an apology to my subscribers. The result was very positive, as the post comments show:

    http://www.marketingsparks.com/archives/208

    I thought that Joel subsequently actived quickly and positively to rectify the situation and his reputation, for me at any rate, remains high. To post a public apology like this takes guts:

    http://www.adsense-secrets.com/apology.html

    Nevertheless, I will be scrutinising every sales page - and the follow-through process - with great care in the future before I reccomend a product to my subscribers.

    Reputations are very sensitive flowers!

    Ian Traynor
    York, UK
    Professional Webmaster
    ----------------------------------
  • Lillian
    Lori Pirog This is what totally turned me off about Matts aproach...it was like trying to get away from a barking dog as it was highly annoying with page after page of prefilled offers. That you have to uncheck every page to avoid getting charged- totally bites.

    If matt simply checked the no button instead of the yes button that would be ok...but he forced his decision on you by prefilling in the order boxes.

    If Matt took a survey of his customers he would probably be surprised what he would learn.

    I don't know Matt Bacak but I have been a subscriber and fan of you for years. I decided to follow up on Matt's order based solely on your recommendation. I honestly don't know what kind of continuity offer was made because I was so beleagured by the page after page of offers, it was like trying to get out of very complicated maze.
  • Sam
    I personally think Matt Bacak needs to change his more "recent" marketing practices, don't get me wrong his products are quality and he has some good material for sale.

    But having a secret agenda to get repeat subscribers while trying to give an illusion you are giving away a $1 seminar, or a free CD (as per Matt's previous offer) - is just going to destroy your reputation Matt.

    Why not just be "up front" about what your intentions are, people do not like to feel "tricked" by sneaky marketers trying to be wise guys.

    Matt Bacak is not the only one trying this type of tactic, I have seen other IM's try this one on recently too - as has been said above why risk getting into trouble with the FTC or the AG's just to make a few extra dollars, and have loads of angry customers and your reputation go down the toilet.

    Just be upfront and clear about what you're selling, yes I know you marketers might be feeling the pinch with the credit crunch etc going on but there is no need to resort to these tactics.

    Lets start putting honesty, integrity before profits....
  • Insert graphic here:

    "FTC'S MOST WANTED: IM Continuity Con Men"

    And once the fines start rolling out, there could be a page on it... :-)

    -k
  • In every world, occupation, business there are good guys and bad guys. I'm not an early adopter, so I tend to sit back and wait to see how others react. And yes, in todays world of OTO and Fire Sales, I miss them all because my belief is that if the offer is good, it should LAST!

    If the marketer has a reputation, it will expose itself, eventually. I have gotten off many lists because a marketer starts to show their true colors. From the affiliate scams to the continuity issue, I see it ALL as a matter of reputation and since I don't wish to blemish mine, I don't involve myself with those who care less.

    All these people with lists, should be acting as if they were the ONLY one getting that email as I see a lot of promotions where the promoter is NOT buying themselves! I wonder how many put themselves through the paces they want US to go through? Sure they set it up...but do they actually go through the process and even time it and check to see when they get annoyed?

    Treating others as you would like to be treated seems like a cliche everyone has forgotten...especially online. Creative Marketing in many ways comes across as BOLD faced lies!

    It makes it easier to understand when an "offliner" thinks all the www is "another scam". And the tons of people trying to find the "real legitimate" operators out here.

    I agree with the other commenter... "If the truth won't sell it, don't sell it". Unfortunately, most marketers on the net take creative techniques as their truth.
  • Lillian
    Look at Vincent James, Extenze.com & Enzyte.com they all offered continuity programs. I actually ordered a free bottle from both extenze & enzyte to see how they do their back end selling.

    NO I did not use either product to increase my size!

    Extenze is a real scamster they give you a 7 day free trial but it takes 2 weeks to get the free 7 day supply which does not cost you the price of a postage stamp.

    A week later you receive a bottle of bills billed to your credit card & you did not even get to try the free 7 day supply!

    If you call them you get a busy signal & when you do reach them on the phone they tell you to call a different number. These guys are scumbags. Extenze even had the nerve to fight the charge back on the credit card several times. This company is very crooked.

    Enzyte I did not have any problems with, however smiling Bob is not smiling anymore because apparently to many complaints were filed with various state AG's.

    I think it would be safer to drive people to a website so you have proof they verified that they read the terms & conditions that are not hidden.
  • Micheal,

    Right on target. I am new this entire internet marketing business and I can tell you from someone that is new and Corporate Executive that I am amazed by the lack of honesty or what most would call "over hype". Technology is increasing at an amazing speed and there are so many problems or challenges that can and should be solved, why is everyone over hyping their products to get the fast buck. I want to personally thank you and Armand Morin for your honesty and setting the bar high.

    I wish you God's speed in all you do and thanks again for the great post.

    All the best,

    Patrick
  • David
    Do your due diligence.

    I have a personal problem and irritation with continuity offers. If you want a monthly sign up, say so. Don't disguise it as you've made clear. However I have gotten so disgusted with all the upsells, one time offers, etc. after I think I'm getting a good deal, I don't bother even looking. If it pops up at any point with a one time offer, special today only, etc., I'm outta there!

    Long ago I learned in seminars about management, relationships and leadership, when you push people, it is in our nature to resist and push back. No matter how much you try to sugar coat it, resistance goes up. So what if you convert 10% to your upsell. If you alienated 90% and made them resistant to future offers from you, what have you accomplished? With all the blogs and IM'ing in the community now, do you really think word won't get around?

    I have seen a couple of places who offered to be reminded in a couple of weeks for a similar savings, just not quite as much. I did and later took advantage of it. I also respect these people enormously and am a repeat customer because they respected me. They wanted and got a RELATIONSHIP with me.

    If you try to force my hand at any point, you do not want a relationship with me, you want my money and don't care how you get it. That's the thinking you encourage in me. Whether true or not is irrelevant. The PERCEPTION has already jumped out and bit me and no amount of persuasion will get it back. These type of offers in my mind demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of what the scarcity principal is all about. When used properly, you can limit memberships, copies sold, etc.

    (The other side of scarcity may need refreshing here. There is a HUGE lack of respect and trust at large for special offers made by any business. It's SCARCE! Prove to those you want a relationship with you have it in spades and they will spread the word. Blow it once and you're on borrowed time. )

    Force me to do it however and I see you as greedy. No matter how good the car is, if the salesman is pushing my resistance buttons, I'm outta there! I am especially concerned more folks who I thought were trustworthy, are using these tactics more often. And this one bothers me. The response to the issues brought forth here, is someone will get right on it during normal business hours (EST)? If you sense a crisis brewing, even if it's just a perception of one, 24/7 becomes your business hours until it is resolved. Any less and you show a huge lack of concern for your relationship with your customers.

    If I had seen the following response, it all would have been different.

    "I hear you are having a problem. I hear your concern and frustration. In order to resolve this to your complete satisfaction and allow me to better understand how this situation got as bad as it did, here is a temporary phone number/email you can contact me at to resolve this as rapidly as possible."

    The demonstration of concern for his relationship with his customers is obvious. His demonstration of leadership by being willing to step in personally to resolve the issue is obvious. He also will be able to discover what about the page was not obvious to them so he can clarify it even more. We may think we are being clear but if the customer does not, who loses? Even in personal, face-to-face conversation it's sometimes hard to make yourself heard clearly.

    Ranting back about how much more clear can I make this?! only proves to me, as a person watching to see what kind of leader you are, you are not. In my mind you just proved total lack of concern. Instead of seeing this as an opportunity, you are offended and take it personally. Leaders take it for granted they will be misunderstood. Some will not like you simply because you are a leader. Goes with the territory. If they are trying to smear you, handle it. If they are upset because of a misunderstanding, resolve it so they have no ammunition and make it plain the problem is not yours, but theirs.

    And no you don't have to kiss their behind to do this. Just be willing to stand firm. If they prove unwilling, know when to stop wasting time and move on. If you know this is a HOT issue in the community at large, why are you not taking dramatic, personal steps to resolve this? No 8-5 M-F BS thank you. When I see the ranting, I am very vividly reminded of my children when they were little getting angry because they didn't get their candy. Boo Hoo.

    Thanks Michel and Sylvie for a great post and discussion!

    David
  • Great article, Michel!

    For the record, our continuity program was VERY clearly spelled out on the sales letter AND the order form from the very beginning. It was NEVER hidden.

    It just wasn't clear enough for those who didn't read the entire sales page.

    There was no small print.

    I believe we have taken a big step towards restoring consumer confidence and am pleased. :-)

    Joel
  • All your feedback is well taken. I'm going to rethink many things...give me some time please. With more then 15,000 products going out the door...Things are positivly crazy right now because we are doing all of our own fulfillment in-house.

    But, I wanted to let you know that yesterday I flew to New Orleans to personally hand a check to Habitat for Humanity. Over 14,897 people donated $1 to Habitat for humanity and if you were one of them... I wanted to personally thank YOU! Go here and watch the whole thing:

    –>> http://tinyurl.com/4z3hv7

    You ROCK!

    Matt Bacak

    P.S. Thank you again. If anyone needs any help then contact my office at mattbacakretires @ gmail.com - also the site was taken down last night at Midnight (EST)
  • Many of these unwanted conditions and situations will disappear from your experience once you create unconditional freedom from the negative feelings you have about them--feelings such as the FEAR that such situations will affect all of us marketers, etc.. As long as you allow yourself to entertain such "negative" feelings and emotions about what's happening out there, how can those situations ever disappear for good? They can't because you need them to feel bad--whether it be to feel worried about losing subscribers or sales, or insecure, or frustrated , or whatever bad-feeling emotion you are still attached or addicted to. Fortunately, you don't have to be stuck with such reactions and fears. My quick and easy unconditional freedom process--a series of simple yet penetrating and possibly confronting questions--has been demonstrated many times to be one of the most profound ways to FREE YOURSELF UNCONDITIONALLY from as many unwanted conditions in your life as you are willing to be free from--right now and forever. Check out www.realfreedomstories.com for many great testimonials and case studies which confirm this.
  • I have never been to a blog where I have seen a bigger bunch of whiners in my entire life!

    I am a Matt Bacak client (and a workaholicsforhire client as well) and the fact that people are crying about this is embarrassing.

    In my book, people who don't like forced continuity are either:

    1. Lazy
    or
    2. Stupid

    They're lazy in that they would be too lazy to cancel BEFORE getting billed.

    Or, they're stupid because of their inability to read and examine an offer closely. It was pretty darn obvious to me that I was signing up for a continuity program when I paid the $1. I really don't see how any else could otherwise say so.

    And while I fully expect people to jump on me for my comments, let's take a look at the 2 biggest "forced continuity crooks" in America today:

    1. The credit card companies (credit protection, credit monitoring, etc)
    2. The cell phone companies (who won't even let you cancel, or if you change your plan that restarts your contract).

    Are you people actually trying to tell me that Matt's offer was less clear than a cell phone contract?

    Come on people, no one held a gun to your head and asked you for $1; and if you got the newsletter and hated it (and I can pretty much guarantee you wouldn't), you could cancel, no questions asked.

    Stop pointing the finger at other people, and take some responsibility for your own actions, and more importantly, your reading comprehension.
  • I'm Guilty, I do Forced Continuity

    I have been watching this unfold.

    It's a great strategy from my point of view and
    let me share with you how we do it in my office.

    We force people on to my newsletter, then force them off.

    Let's go through the process.

    First, 14,987 people went to the site and
    bought my 5,500 seminar for only $1. By the
    way I personally matched and handed that
    $1 matched to habitat, here's proof:

    http://www.mattbacakretires.com

    I call it the "Moving the Free line on Steriods"

    Describe the freeline here: The idea is that there is
    a line, a point on your sales funnel where you distribute
    free value, and below the line comes all the paid-for
    products, moving from front to back-end.

    Hence a seminar that people paid me $5,500
    dollars for for just $1 donation to Habitat.

    Here is the salesletter for you to check it out for
    yourself and read Ray's Edwards incredible copy.

    http://www.promotingtips.com/retiressite.pdf

    If you notice it is stated on page 7 for
    those who do read the sales letter and on
    the order form for people that don't read
    the sales letter and just order.

    Comment: Scroll to page 7 and scroll to order form.

    After you ordered, you land on the first upsell.

    I think it's un-American not to upsell.

    (Maybe, I'm just a capitalist.)

    That landing page does state that you are
    getting the 'Internet Marketing Dirt'.

    At that moment. whoever ordered got
    an email, that told them that they are
    subscribed to the newsletter and then
    they went to a OTO.

    OTO is a one time offer.

    Here is the email that people get:

    Subject Line: Matt Bacak Retires - Important Access Info

    ------Email is below--------

    SAVE THIS EMAIL FOR YOUR RECORDS

    Hi Joe Blow,

    Thank you for ordering Matt Bacak Retires!

    What you may not realize is you just got your hands
    on one of the most valuable training programs in
    existence anywhere -- and at any price.


    See the full details below and take action:
    => http://www.promotingtips.com/XXXXXX/

    Username: XXXXX
    Password: XXXXX

    ==============================
    IMPORTANT NOTICE REGARDING DIRT
    ==============================

    As part of the $1 Matt Bacak Retires Package you
    will receive a free issue of Matt's offline print
    newsletter, INTERNET MARKETING DIRT!

    Your first free issue will be in your mailbox soon.

    We know you'll find the information valuable
    because we make it easy!

    Each month on the 12th you will be billed $29.97
    just before the issue ships. If you wish to stop
    receiving Matt's most powerful strategies that he's
    using to make millions in 2008 or need to
    change your mailing address or billing info,
    just email mattbacakretires @ gmail.com

    TO MASSIVE PROFITS!

    Matt Bacak, Founder
    Frontier Marketing Int'l

    PS: You can also profit immediately by promoting
    this hot-selling offer as an affiliate...

    See the full details below and take action:
    => http://www.promotingtips.com/XXXXXX/

    Username: XXXXX
    Password: XXXXX


    ------END OF EMAIL------

    Now while you are getting that email
    and go through the OTO process. You land
    on the Thank You Page which is where it
    is again stated on that page.

    Then the newsletter comes in
    the mail with a BIG fat sticky
    note on it that says you will
    be billed and how to cancel.

    So let's review the process again:

    It said it on the sales letter, it says it on the
    order from. It said it on the thank you page, on
    the landing page and on the thank you email.

    And we stick a BIG fat yellow sticky note on
    the first issue that they receive in the mail.

    If you need any help with your
    order then just email us at:

    mattbacakretires @ gmail.com

    (Remove the spaces around the @ so
    that you can get your email to us)

    Someone will get back to you
    as quickly as possible during
    regular business hours. "EST

    ---------- FAQ's ----------

    FAQ: How can I contact and unsubscribe?

    ANSWER: Just email us at: mattbacakretires @ gmail.com

    (Remove the spaces around the @ so
    that you can get your email to us)

    FAQ: If I unsubscribe will I still be
    able to access the site with the videos?

    ANSWER: Yes, you still can access it forever.

    FAQ: When I went in the videos didn't work, why?

    ANSWER: Becasue We have gone through over 12,000 gigs
    of bandwidth on the Videos in the last 2 weeks. But,
    they are working now and have been for a while.

    FAQ: My password doesn't work?

    ANSWER: Make sure there are no spaces,before
    and after the username and the password. Also,
    make sure its all lowercase

    FAQ: Did the JV partners know about the
    forced continutiy?

    ANSWER: Yes, they received around 5-7 emails
    that shared it with them and was very clear. Any
    of the back pedlers and backstabbers will be...
  • Mark
    Matt are you claiming you revealed everything for $1 from your Retirement Seminar?

    In other words did the $1 trial members get the complete seminar as you advertised?

    I examined it & appeared to be very basic with nothing new revealed & according to some others it was not complete.

    I was expecting advanced marketing info... However,I only received basic marketing info that you could find posted anywhere.

    $5000 is very expensive for basic grade school marketing that you revealed ...however I did like the merchant account source you revealed.
    Up sells are ok but 4 or 5 in a row is annoying as hell...comes across like a fly that you want to get rid of...SWAT...SPLAT!
  • @Mark:

    Then your problem is with the content. That very seminar DID indeed sell for $5,000. And a lot of people paid exactly that, and many loved it.

    However, I understand that it might not be appealing to everyone -- such as yourself. You can't please everyone. You're not happy with the product's content, and that's fine. And you're also not happy with the upsells, or the offer, or Matt Bacak himself.

    Sure.

    But...

    You seem to spend an incredible amount of energy and time to post your grievances on this blog and on many others. (I've deleted twice as many comments from you for a variety of reasons.)

    What shocks me is that you're complaining EXCESSIVELY for a product you paid for just one dollar???

    Well, all I can say is, "wow."
  • Mark and Michel,

    Actually, my offline newsletter - internet marketing Dirt is where you find the advanced stuff you are looking for.
  • Mark
    Your missing the point. Matts content was overhyped with the sales letter.

    The sales letter over sells but under delivers.

    Joe Sugarman always believed in under selling not over selling.

    I have found that under selling actually increase your believability when done write.

    Marketeers get offended by the truth. I listen to my customers & if there is a negative pattern of responses then something is wrong & needs to be fixed.

    For example Matt could have had a check box that forced trial members check the box agrreing that they have read the terms & conditions. This works for me as people are usually in too much of hurry so you force them to hopefully read your brief easy to read terms.
  • @Mark:

    And you seem to be missing the point, too.
  • Mark
    Michael your too soft...heck my copywriting buddies rip me apart just like I do them.
    I want to know what sucks & what annoys them just as they do from me.

    If in doubt I'll test it out. Sometimes they're right & sometimes they're wrong.

    Right now I'm testing an exit pop up which annoys the hell out of most people...I need to see if the claims are true about increasing your conversions.

    Most Copywriters have the biggest egos & there like most of my bodybuilding associates...but who cares thats just the way it is...highly competitive.

    I'm not attacking Matt...he comes across as an easy going likeable guy...I perceive I'm coming across as a bitchy whining SOB.
  • I recently purchased a &9.95 e book from Joel Comm. Apparently I did not see the well-hidden 29.99 per month newsletter that went with it.

    When I tried to cancel, I called the phone number and got "we are on the phone" as a response. When I went to the website, I had to register an account at the help desk in order to even contact them.
    Talk about jumping through hoops!

    I have taken this matter up with my credit card company and Mr. Joel Comm will NOT be getting $ from me.

    I have posted to every forum that I frequent about Joel Comm and his dishonest tactics. One of these forums is a MAJOR web hosting and site building forum which is read by hundreds of thousands.

    Joel Comm now has my permanent disgust for anything with his name on it and I will do my best to make sure that others are not taken in by his underhanded marketing strategies.
  • Michelle
    I just found out yesterday that I had been caught out by Matt Bacak's sneaky promotion. You may interested to know that I brought the matter to attention of Habitat for Humanity ( a wonderful charity) and they will be investigating what was done and how their name was used. Aside from the business ethics, I think that there is something very wrong in linking a reputable charity to such a dubious scheme.
  • A man after my own heart. I've been ranting about this for years, although I call it "hidden negative option" marketing.

    Just in the off chance people aren't aware, the FTC has very good guidelines about proper disclosure placement as they relate to proximity and prominence here:

    http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/dot...
  • I have a problem with forced and hidden continuity. I just signed up for Tellmann's List Crusade. He uses forced continuity. That really burned me too. The offer wasn't clear it all. I thought I was ordering a CD course to be delivered in the mail. They didn't tell me the course was online. They didn't even send me the login. Then they start charging me monthly for a membership site. I will never read anything from him again. Anyone that has to used forced continuity doesn't offer a good product. Tellmanm just lost all his credibility with me.
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