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The Real Sinister Side of Forced Continuity

Used car salesRant warning: what follows may offend some people. But I wanted to throw in my three cents on the topic of “forced continuity,” which seems to be the subject of a lot of debate these days.

Several well-known marketers have made offers of late with forced continuity. What it means is, the intended product you want to buy can only be purchased when you buy another (often, a continuous subscription) billed to your account every month or so until you cancel.

Forced continuity is nothing new. (In direct marketing, they call these “Til Forbid” offers.) It’s another type of offer, pure and simple. It’s marketing. And there’s nothing wrong with that. What’s wrong is not the way the offer is made.

The real problem is its lack of transparency.

But that’s not what I want to rant about today.

What a lot of people seem to be missing here (and something my brilliant wife brought to my attention, which makes perfect sense to me), is that there is a deeper, much darker side to this whole thing.

Something all marketers need to be aware of…


First off, I was caught in the middle myself when I hastily promoted an offer last week, which I failed to investigate and inform my audience about, because I took for granted that the marketer’s offer in question was clear.

(I’ve been told that it has since been fixed.)

Nevertheless, that was my fault.

Amid the flurry of abusive hate email, being called every name “in the book,” and the loss of many subscribers on my list (which are to a degree understandable), I apologized for it.

But my mistake aside, whether the sales copy is clear or not is not the issue I want to focus on. Being clear is simply good business practice. It’s also common sense.

Specifically, there’s a difference between optional, forced, and hidden continuity. The first one I agree with. The second one I don’t mind. But the last one is the one I despise.

It’s also the one that’s illegal.

Some marketers fail to properly inform the customer in their copy, and sometimes they skillfully hide the fine print until the last minute, just enough to be borderline “legal.”

My opinion?

You need to be transparent. You need to be clear in your offer. And you need great copy (yes, great copywriting can ethically persuade people to accept your continuity offer, when done right).

Above all, you need to be above board. Why? Because the gold is not in your list, as many marketers suggest. It’s in your relationship with your list. Big difference.

But whether forced continuity in itself is a good or bad thing, or whether it’s legal or illegal, is not the issue I want to focus on, either.

There’s plenty of debate going on right now discussing those issues, on blogs and forums, many of which are beyond the scope of what I want to tell you today.

I’m not a lawyer, and I certainly know that, legality aside, there’s a question of whether or not it is ethical in the first place. (I do believe it can be done ethically and transparently so that it’s a win-win for both sides.)

What really bothers me is the stigma it creates.

That’s the problem I have with all of this.

Matt Bacak and Joel Comm, two marketers who are at the center of the recent forced continuity controversy, are friends of ours. We promoted for them in the past, and they in turn promoted for us or will be promoting for us (such as our new Success Chef training system), which we are deeply grateful for.

Matt is not only a great friend but also a client of ours. I wrote copy for him in the past. My wife takes care of a lot of his outsourcing work. We spoke at several of Matt’s seminars. Here we are holding Matt’s newborn baby a few years ago.

As for Joel Comm, he, too, is a friend. In fact, my wife and I were the first ones to introduce Joel Comm to the Internet marketing seminar community.

We introduced him to the audience while we were on stage at a seminar two years ago, because we bundled his Adsense course with our offer at the time. We even paid Joel out of our own pockets for all the copies we sold that day.

As far as their approach is concerned, I do appreciate their attempts to push the envelope, which is admirable. It also opens the doors to be creative, providing new ideas for marketers to make offers online.

As Paul Hancox stated in his report, The Secrets of a 10% Conversion (which I highly recommend), the most important part of a salesletter to test is not the headline but the offer. And forced continuity is simply a different type of offer.

Forced continuity aside, one can learn a lot by watching how these marketers market themselves. Their use of video is one of them, for example.

But the biggest problem I have with all of this is this…

It may be borderline ethical, but being “borderline” is just enough to cause a lot of animosity and resentment. Those feelings of ill-will and hostility are going to be a problem these marketers will have to deal with, and that’s their challenge.

Believe me, Matt and Joel are far from being the bad guys. As service providers for close to 20 years, we’ve seen it all. And trust me, we’ve seen a lot worse.

For example, there are some marketers out there who not only make their continuity offers hidden, but also make it tremendously difficult for customers to cancel their subscriptions and obtain refunds.

On purpose.

Those are the worst, if you ask me.

(Making your customers jump through hoops to cancel their orders, not honoring your guarantees, or refusing to refund them, is just bad business all around, whether you used forced continuity or not.)

But what some marketers — the ones who use questionable and potentially harmful tactics — may not be cognizant about is how these feelings will affect others and our industry as a whole.

In other words, it gives Internet marketers a bad reputation. It gives all of us a bad name. It creates animosity and mistrust toward all marketers, good or bad. And now, legitimate marketers have to struggle twice as hard to sell and make an honest living in this business.

I know this from personal experience.

I fought hard to protect the integrity of good direct response copywriters out there. The direct marketing industry is not made up of just a bunch of scammy, carnival-barking, long-copy, hype-mongering fraudsters, as some purport.

Believe me, when I first opened my copywriters forum, there were some amazing, crazy, and sometimes pretty heated debates going on!

But some bad apples can indeed rot the basket. And they have. Why do you think the used-car business has such a bad reputation, for instance?

If you were to go into the used car business yourself, and you’re a legitimate business owner with the intent to conduct your business in an honest, professional, and transparent manner, you have your work cut out for you.

You see, we’re facing the same problem.

Marketers push the envelope. They think outside the box to come up with new and creative ways to sell. This is good. In principle. But the problem is, some of them just don’t care. They will push the envelope too far.

Some even justify the backlash as publicity. “Bad publicity is good publicity,” they say. Negative publicity is good when it is ill-founded or based on opinion alone (because you can easily fight those, especially if you’re a good copywriter).

And controversy does sell.

But it’s not good when it is true and well-founded — that is, when it is based on bad business, such as something illegal or unethical.

Sure, controversy creates curiosity (and sales do result). I’m a big fan of controversy. But controversy alone, or controversy created by bad or questionable business practices, is like a drug.

It’s short-lived. It requires constant injections — injections of new markets, new products, or new offers — to stay “high” (high sales volume, that is). It forces marketers to keep fighting fires rather than growing their businesses. And it creates ill will, which affects future sales and…

… Kills it for the rest of us.

Here’s an analogy.


A snake oil salesman comes to town. He sells his magic elixir that promises results after a period of time. After he sells his entire lot, in the dead of night he packs up and skips town before people realize he just scammed them.

Now, obviously, he can’t go back to the same town to sell other stuff. He is forced to move to the next town to keep earning money.

Here’s where it gets mucky.

The next time another salesman comes to town, perhaps a legitimate one selling a legitimate product, their sales will falter as a result of that town’s previous bad experience. People will instantly distrust them. They will refuse to buy if not chase them right out of town.

In those days, word got around by horseback. So the snakeoil salesman had no trouble going from town to town scamming others.

Today, with the help of the Internet however, you don’t need to be a victim like those townsfolk to be wary and skeptical of new salespeople. You just need an Internet connection.

Again, Joel and Matt are good guys. They put out great products, and I like what they’re trying to do in terms of promotion and marketing.

It’s creative. Done right, it can be both legal and ethical. And tremendously profitable, too.

But done wrong or done poorly, next time another marketer makes a similar offer people are going to think twice about making a purchasing decision.

Now, remember that the caveat emptor applies (let the buyer beware). I’m just as guilty of this. I should have conducted my own due diligence, just as much as we all should.

However, if you’re a marketer thinking of offering forced continuity, think twice before you do. Remember the difference between “forced continuity” and “hidden continuity.” Be clear. Be transparent. And serve your customers well.

Otherwise, when it’s not done properly, forced continuity can cause a lot more damage in its wake. Why? Not because it is bad in itself, or the fact that it leaves a bad taste in people’s mouths.

But because, bottom line, it affects us all as marketers.

(And remember, some of us marketers are your joint-venture partners. Some of us are your affiliates. And yes, some of us are your clients, too.)

About the Author

Michel Fortin is a direct response copywriter, author, speaker, consultant, and CEO of The Success Doctor, Inc. Visit his blog and signup free to get tested conversion strategies and response-boosting tips by email, along with blog updates, news, and more! Go now to http://www.michelfortin.com.

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74 Replies to “The Real Sinister Side of Forced Continuity”

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  1. From My thoughts today…

    [...] last couple of days. If you haven’ heard about it, you can read some of it here, here, and here to name just a few. I guess I’ll let them do the [...]

    Source Website April 21st, 2008

  2. From 5 Types Of Posts To Write | Keith Goodrum

    [...] 3. Rant posts – Want to get something off your chest? Is something bugging you? Well then write a post about it… You’ll find this is an easy post to write. Especially when you are a little riled up. Here is a good example of a rant post from Michel Fortin titled: The Real Sinister Side of Forced Continuity [...]

    Source Website April 21st, 2008

  3. From Leesa Barnes - Podcasting Expert and Author of Podcasting for Profit » Hidden Continuity is a Lousy Sales Tactic

    [...] got wind of it via Michel Fortin’s blog. Lynn Terry goes into more detail. Apparently, there’s a product that was recently launched [...]

    Source Website April 21st, 2008

  4. From Matt Bacak Called Me Last Night » Copywriting Tips, Maximize Internet Advertising

    [...] Fortin chimed in on the Forced Continuity ‘controversy’ yesterday and so far has received 52 comments. If you count all the comments he’s deleted for [...]

    Source Website April 22nd, 2008

  5. From News By Tom Brownsword › Joel Comm Admits That He Is Human

    [...] Michel Fortin made a great post about continuity programs that is definitely worth reading. This was written by Administrator. Posted on Wednesday, April [...]

    Source Website April 22nd, 2008

  6. From Forced Continuity: A Different Perspective | The Michel Fortin Blog

    [...] excellent rebuttals as well as countless comments I’ve received on my previous post, “The Real Sinister Side of Forced Continuity,” I believe some people are missing the point of my argument, and I want to clarify a few [...]

    Source Website April 23rd, 2008

  7. From The Whole Joel Comm Debacle » Social Marketing

    [...] of buzz about the whole Joel Comm forced continuity thing in the past week.  you can read Michel Fortin’s take on the topic of continuity here, and see Joel’s apology here if you need to catch [...]

    Source Website April 24th, 2008

Comments

  1. From Lynn Terry

    Excellent post, Michel - well said!

    Author's Website April 21st, 2008

  2. From Lillian

    You need to be aware of Matt Babak!

    He may be open about his continuity program but not with his current Matt Bacak retires.

    Are you familiar with the Matt Bacak retire promotion that he’s promoting via affiliates?

    It’s where he is offering his complete $5,500 Internet Seminar for $1

    Matt says “I’m going to give you my seminar material. All of it… For just $1.” It’s Total BS! He leads you to believe you’re getting the complete seminar for $1..what he does is trick you into buying the seminar after you give your credit card info!

    Go to:

    https://mattbacakretires.com/ & you see for yourself.

    Read the hidden purchase agreement at the bottom of page regarding the purchase of his product. You will see how Matt tricks others into accidentally ordering his matt retires system for $497 non-refundable!

    This is deceptive & I’m going to report him to the FTC.

    I’m very disappointed in Russel Brunson & Matt Bacak for deceiving warriors.

    Author's Website April 21st, 2008

  3. From Kevin - the Article Marketing Guy

    Hey Michel,

    Matt’s a friend of mine too but I didn’t promote his latest offering because quite frankly, I hate forced continuity programs (from the position of a customer).

    I know they work but I figure if they irritate me, they probably irritate a lot of others. I know marketing is always “intrusive” to a degree but looking at the backlash, I’m glad I passed.

    Hope you and Sylvie are well,
    Kevin

    Author's Website April 21st, 2008

  4. From Sam

    Hi got roped into a Matt Bacak continuity program a while back. The worst of it was how poor the content was. Rehashed stuff that can be found in much free or low cost content. Nothing worth what he was charging.

    Author's Website April 21st, 2008

  5. From Alvin

    I think this is a great lesson for all internet marketers. Don’t because of the desire to make money and commit ‘ethical’ mistake

    Having said that, everyone is a human and we all make mistakes. Let us forgive those we apologized and learn for their mistake.

    And for all who continue to defense themselves for their wrong doing and continue implement such unethical practice, time will catch up with them and they will soon lose their reputation and customers. (it is not worth it).

    Relationship is where the money is…not the list

    Author's Website April 21st, 2008

  6. From Alan Petersen

    These issues with forced continuity in the Internet marketing community is nothing new and has been going on since late 2007:

    http://warriorforum.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=177217

    copywritersboard.com/marketing-discussion/7672-disappointed-…

    Yet these highly respected (at least they use to be) A-list marketers are trying the same tricks. I don’t know if this will be enough of a wake up call or not since it doesn’t appear the controversy that brewed up in August 2007 and January 2008 dissuade them from trying to sneak it on by.

    What leaves even a worse taste in my mouth is how they affected the reputation of good people like you and others who promoted this unaware of the forced continuity. And, who are now receiving flaming arrows into their in-box. If they want to tarnish their own reputation go for it but at least respect your affiliates. I don’t have a huge list and this could have burned me big time with my small but loyal list. I’m just glad I didn’t get around to promote it. I don’t care how good the material is. I’m not getting near it with a ten foot pole.

    Author's Website April 21st, 2008

  7. From Michel Fortin

    @Kevin:

    Kevin, I hear you loud and clear. And me too, I’m not a big fan of continuity programs myself. But your comment is, in fact, proving my point. You said, “I hate forced continuity programs (from the position of a customer).” And that “they irritate you” (and irritate others).

    So true. And you probably do hate them because you were either the victim of, or have seen others become victims of, badly done continuity offers. And that’s my problem.

    When you’re clear and above board, and you don’t try to hide it, I think it’s fine. And I’m speaking from a customer’s standpoint. (In fact, I implied this in the very last line of my rant above.)

    Some people buy products for the premiums alone. Just as some will be forced into a continuity program to get their hands on the main product alone. You either buy it or you don’t. But either way, it’s still a choice.

    To me, offering a continuity program is not the problem. It’s hiding it that is. Because when you’re hiding it, you’re removing that choice from your customers.

    But that is not the real point I’m trying to get across, here. The point is that those who abuse or hide continuity offers are killing not only legitimate forced continuity offers but also legitimate marketers, too.

    That’s my biggest beef.

    @Lillian:

    I get what you’re saying. But in Matt’s defense, he has since fixed it. And if you cancelled, I’m sure you got your cancellation and refund promptly. (Some have reported this to me, as Matt in known to be quick to support his customers.)

    Admittedly, however, I don’t agree with Matt’s approach. And I didn’t like the way it was presented. I should have checked into it first, myself. But that’s my fault. However, I still don’t think it’s a bad thing. It’s just not my cup of tea.

    But something you said is confusing to me. You said, “Read the hidden purchase agreement at the bottom of page.” How can you read it if it’s hidden?

    Author's Website April 21st, 2008

  8. From Andrew Cavanagh

    Actually I got full access to Matt’s seminar and it really did cost me just $1.

    There was no attempt to trick me into buying his $497 upsell (that was 100% transparent).

    There certainly is a monthly newsletter subscription you can cancel any time (that’s the forced continuity).

    I agree 100% that you should be transparent about forced continuity.

    Common sense tells you that if you want paid subscribers to continue paying you they need to be sold in advance on the idea.

    Otherwise you’ll just be flooded with cancellations and refund requests.

    Kindest regards,
    Andrew Cavanagh

    Author's Website April 21st, 2008

  9. From Michel Fortin

    @Everyone:

    Please refrain from making any personal attacks (I’ve deleted a few, and I’m not singling out anyone in particular). And let’s leave the quality of the product itself out of the debate, including mentioning specific names of marketers.

    What I’m trying to communicate here — and the main purpose of my entire post — is how such tactics can harm us marketers as a whole. That’s why I posted my rant. And it’s something we all need to be aware of.

    How such things can affect us all is really the crux of the matter.

    Author's Website April 21st, 2008

  10. From Lillian

    Michael, read the post on the warrior forum.

    What Matt has resorted to doing is tricking you into buting his $497 Matt Retires Seminar.

    After you sped $1 & submit your credit card Matt has a yes button automatically clicked on for you if you accidentally forget to uncheck it then you are charged $497 with no money back guarantee.

    Read the purchase agreement it says it there fully but at the bottom of page where its not transparent to you. I reun a successful continuity program with no problems as the person is forced to read the easy to read terms & conditions. Nothing is hidden & no trickery is involved.

    I realize the lifetime value of my customer & want them to be happy & not pissed off in any away.

    Author's Website April 21st, 2008

  11. From Joshua Uebergang

    I believe those who use such tactics see their customers as a mass not caring for the people they rip off. Much like Mother Teresa when she said, “If I look at the mass, I will never act. If I look at the one, I will.”

    A few days ago I had experience with a supplement company, Adenotrex, that nicely demonstrates what marketers should be doing, instead of deception: Making information transparent and also having a persuasive group of cut and paste emails that support can use to retain customers cancelling their membership. There’s no jumping through hoops: just a company selling you the benefits of retaining membership, what you’ll miss out on if you cancel, and a willingness to bend the rules to retain members.

    Author's Website April 21st, 2008

  12. From Michel Fortin

    @Joshua:

    Excellent point!

    Edited to add: My wife Sylvie is big on that subject. In fact, if you watched the 70-minute video tutorial at http://www.successchef.com/prelaunch/ she says so eloquently: “People are not just a bunch of nameless, faceless wallets. They are your customers.”

    Author's Website April 21st, 2008

  13. From Mark McCullagh

    I write about an experience I had with this back in December with regards to a “free CD” offer (the S & H definitely generated revenue).

    The sales letter states:

    “When you order your CD, you will receive four (4) bonuses worth a total of $539.95 which includes a free report, free strategy session, free newsletter and our product creation blueprint.”

    No mention of the monthly subscription there.

    Then there are 4 bullet points “hyping” the “free” bonuses.

    Here’s the third bullet point from the top (edited):

    Bonus #3: When you get your CD today you’ll also receive a free 7-day trial membership into _____ so you can immediately put this listbuilding information to work for you and your bank account. Plus, if after the 7 -day trial period you decide _____ isn’t for you you can cancel your $29.95 membership at any time! (Value $29.95)

    When you click through to the order page, again there is no mention of the monthly membership fee, just a bullet point third from the top.

    But this time the wording changed.

    The bullet point is now shorter and says that you are “entitled” to a free 7-day trial of ____that is worth $29.95. And that’s it.

    Is this deceptive?

    In my opinion, you’re bloody well right it is.

    Author's Website April 21st, 2008

  14. From Ken Calhoun

    Thanks, Michel - for articulating the correct point of view so very well in your initial blog post; you’ve perfectly described the truth of the situation. Many of us are big fans of continuity — it’s just the *hidden* continuity (or non-FTC compliant “nonconspicuous”, which means buried in mouseprint, which is only slightly less egregious), that is bad ethics and bad marketing. The key as you’ve so correctly brought up is being completely transparent and open with your customers about exactly what happens.

    Hiding the continuity by not disclosing it in the initial salesletter, and then only changing the salesletter to disclose it AFTER a lot of complaints surface, is non-FTC compliant and dishonest, and that’s what we’ve seen here recently from several marketers, none of which I will ever do business with in this lifetime. Hiding continuity in mouseprint, buried as a bonus, is borderline and still not ethical — it would be BEST to offer the product standalone, and add continuity as an upsell or other offer, as a separate offer that’s clearly delineated on the sales page.

    In my book, and that of the FTC, hidden forced continuity is illegal and needs to stop. Right now. Some of us DO contact the FTC and AG’s office and file class actions - so it’s not worth it, for those who would copy this unethical practice.

    A reputation, once damaged, is lost forever. Like that one marketer (who I’ll refrain from naming) who had a “retiring from IM’ pitch years ago, only to resurface 18 months later with something else - his repuation, as those of the marketers who’ve been dishonest with hidden continuity, is shot forever and will be remembered for years. How much lost sales and relationship with the market, is that worth?

    Stop Hidden Forced Continuity Now. It’s an FTC violation and will have some of us aggressively going after you in court and/or via the alphabet agencies.

    -k

    Author's Website April 21st, 2008

  15. From Matt Bacak

    Thanks for all the kind posts and thoughts.

    If you need any help with your
    order then just email us at:

    mattbacakretires [at] gmail.com

    Someone will get back to you
    as quickly as possible during
    regular business hours. “EST”

    Matt Bacak

    Author's Website April 21st, 2008

  16. From Ron Schmidt

    Michel,

    I’m working here online, applying to a very high profile Executive MBA program after 36 years of sales and marketing experience working for 6 major Fortune 500 companies and the second essay question goes something like this:

    “We, the XXXX College of Business community, aspire to the highest ethical standards and will hold each other accountable to them. We will not engage in any action that is improper or that creates the appearance of impropriety in our academic lives, and we intend to hold to this standard in our future careers.”

    The XXXX MBA program considers the Honor Code to be a central part of the culture; it is one small signal to the business world that we take character, integrity, and honor seriously. Can you describe a situation in which you found yourself that challenged your integrity? How did you resolve the problem?

    Unfortunately I’ve been involved in several situations where executives of a company did dishonest things that affected my career and also my reputation. And to tell you the truth, my good name was and is more valuable to me than just about anything in business.

    Certain marketers will try and take advantage of unknowing consumers in an effort to feather their own nests. And there are plenty who will just plain steal your materials. Wasn’t that the case with your friend and client?

    Wasn’t his material being “ripped off”? And wasn’t that the reasoning your friend and client used for reducing his entire body of work to a paltry sum that anyone with half a brain would be willing to pay. If the intent was to get back at the bad guys for ripping him off, why did he set up several “let’s see how many of these “dumb customers” can jump through a series of hoops without getting entangled in a

    Skullduggery will always get you nowhere! If your intent is to try and trick

    When I saw executives pulling all kinds of stupid stunts in order to pull one over on MY CUSTOMERS, I headed for the door. I certainly didn’t want these folk’s dubous, scandalous and somewhat illegal actions reflecting on me or my business.

    Michel, if I were you I would carefully consider who I promoted and who I didn’t.

    After reading this blog over twice, it would seem as if you’re trying to defend your friend and client’s actions on the technical merit of not being illegal.

    I don’t want to give you advice but by now I’m sure you’ve spent enough time trying to defend your friend and client’s actions and some of the ill will has probably run off on you, through your lack of due diligence. And that’s a fair mistake.

    But I would caution you to stay away from anyone or anything who could in the least bit tarnish your image and your business - friend, client, associate, JV partner, whoever.

    These folks are a little too slick for me.

    If you can’t sell your product on it’s own merit and have to resort to “stupid marketing tricks” offering a ridiculous “come on suckers, I’ve got you price” only to try and manipulate people into buying the offer back for 500% of the original offer, you deserve to go to marketing “hell” and stay there with the rest of the consumate losers, confidence artists, unprofessional brain-dead sales scum that ruins things for the legitimate folks who have to work twice as hard to overcome all of the dumb asses out there who only care about one thing - themselves.

    Michel, if I were you, I would get as far away from your friend and client.

    Just because you’re holding his baby, did not mean that it stopped him from trying to pull a fast one over on your own customers and readers.

    Con artists are so named because of the “confidence” they try to establish with their victims.

    I’d be heading for the hills from this relationship if I were you.

    Author's Website April 21st, 2008

  17. From Lillian

    Strange my post on the warrior forum about Matt Bacak got deleted after generating too many hits & feedback exposing Matt & his marketing tactics.

    Author's Website April 21st, 2008

  18. From Ron Schmidt

    IN REGARD TO KEN CALHOUN’S COMMENTS.

    Ken, well said. I like your idea of making a call to the FTC and AG’s offices.

    Ridding the landscape of these “unscroupulous marketers” by holding their feet to the fire legally will stop their nonsense and only make it better for the legitimate folks.

    Author's Website April 21st, 2008

  19. From Matt Bacak

    In my defense… It’s very clear…very clear.

    It says it on the sales letter, it says it on the
    order from. It says it on the thank you page, on
    the landing page and on the thank you email.

    And we stick a BIG fat yellow sticky note on
    the first issue that they receive in the mail.

    This is the site everyone is going to:
    https://mattbacakretires.com/real-proof.php

    If you need any help with your
    order then just email us at:

    mattbacakretires @ gmail.com

    Someone will get back to you
    as quickly as possible during
    regular business hours. “EST”

    Author's Website April 21st, 2008

  20. From Stephen Dean

    I saw the continuity before I purchased for a dollar, I bought anyway, and I plan on paying the continuity. I saw Matt speak once and it was fantastic. Can’t wait to see what he has in store for me.

    Some readers skip a lot of information when purchasing. I suppose since I write copy I knew where to look for the important stuff. But I think calling Matt a con artist is way too bold - as people often are behind a computer.

    Author's Website April 21st, 2008

  21. From Michel Fortin

    @Ron:

    Point taken.

    However, I did defend Matt because I know him personally, and I know from past experiences that Matt is an upstanding guy. But Matt is a big boy. He can defend himself. In fact, Matt has personally emailed me to let me know that they are doing what they can to fix this.

    But whether his latest effort is without reproach is obviously arguable, and I personally am not a fan of it. I think he made a mistake, and I admit that I made one, too.

    But it’s not the point I was trying to make.

    It’s not him I’m trying to defend. It’s the forced continuity offer (which I still think is not bad when done properly), and, more importantly, other legitimate marketers who are vilified and lose business because of poorly done offers, let alone offers by real scammers.

    My point was also to look at the bigger picture, and what we can learn from all this, rather than blame others. My attempt was to educate on why one should think twice before making similar offers — and why and how to do it right.

    Author's Website April 21st, 2008

  22. From Matt Bacak

    @ Lillian

    I really don’t understand your problem.

    Everything in the $497 package is in the digital.

    Did you watch the video?

    Did you login?

    Dang dude.

    Author's Website April 21st, 2008

  23. From Matt Bacak

    Here is the OTO watch this again:

    https://mattbacakretires.com/dvdoto.php?override=1

    Author's Website April 21st, 2008

  24. From Lillian

    Matt sorry about offending you. It was just real annoying to get blasted with all your offers BLAM! BLAM! BLAM!

    It felt like I ran into a porn site. Very annoying. If you get other complaints…Then I would really consider confirming their orders.

    Author's Website April 21st, 2008

  25. From Michel Fortin

    @Lillian:

    Please refrain from personal attacks. I’m deleting your comments. If you have a beef with Matt, as they say in bars, “take it outside.” (Meaning, take it up with him.) Remember the rule above: please don’t attack, demean, or bully. I appreciate your help.

    Author's Website April 21st, 2008

  26. From Sylvie Fortin

    Just a quick reminder.

    This is not a discussion board where people bicker back and forth. This is Michel’s blog.

    The point of this post was discussing the differences between…

    Continuity
    Forced Continuity
    Hidden Continuity

    That’s it. Michel’s point was to say that there is a HUGE difference between the three, and people often get confused and start hammering on marketers who use forced continuity, when the real problem lies in marketers who used HIDDEN continuity, which is transparent and unable to be canceled.

    Neither Matt nor Joel use Hidden Continuity and Michel did not say that they did.

    Michel’s commentary is on the unethical practice of Hidden Continuity. Period.

    As Matt has so clearly stated, if you have specific comments to make about Matt’s continuity program, please use the customer support service address he provided. I can personally attest to the fact that Matt provides exceptional customer support, and always makes sure his customer’s needs are met.

    Please restrict comments on Michel’s blog to the THEORETICAL application of continuity, rather than blasting specific people.

    Here’s a quote to remind us all of what is important…

    “Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people.” -Eleanor Roosevelt

    Author's Website April 21st, 2008

  27. From Lillian

    Sylvie Fortin, I hope you did mistake my comments about Matts actions as an attack on Matt-I’m attacking his actions- which does affect people.

    Did you order Matts $1 seminar? If not then please do it to experience what others go through.

    Its like walking through a marketing landmine. I guarantee if Michael used the same upsell strategies within his market that it generate alot of negative feedback.

    Author's Website April 21st, 2008

  28. From Mark Goodson

    I have been a fan of Matt’s for a few years now. I am also a hater of hidden continuity programs that are buried in fine print paragraphs deep.

    I hope Matt changed the site to make the offer more obvious because of an original oversight, rather than as a reaction to all the complaints.

    I would love to defend him, but I have my doubts because this is the second time I got caught up in one of his hidden agendas.

    When I found out about it, through numerous blogs, I went back to the site and could find no information as to how to cancel, nor was it reported to paypal as $1 the 1st month and so much every month after…

    Not to pick on Matt, becaue there are several marketers out there using these techniques.. and personally It tells me that either they have to resort to those techniques to make money or they have just become greedy… but the bottom-line is that they ruin it not only for themselves but like Michael so elegantly put, for the rest of us, who are trying to be reputable.

    I know after being caught by this trap with the same marketer twice… I will never do buisiness with them again, not will I ever recommend him to any of my students or at any of my seminars…

    I hope these marketers will see the error of their ways… It is hard enough out here to earn trust of our clients without being attached with a car salesman sign.

    Author's Website April 21st, 2008

  29. From Sylvie Fortin

    @ Lillian

    It seems that your issue has more to do with the idea of the One Time Offer (or Multiple One Time Offers) he chose to implement, rather than the continuity issue. In reviewing your comments, it seems (and correct me if I’m wrong) that your problem is with the “after the $1 sale” process he used.

    In which case, the problem has little to do with the continuity aspect and has a lot more to do with his choice of trying to sell even more on the back end.

    I have never had a problem with anyone attempting to sell me something. I’m a big girl and can take it. If I don’t want it, I simply say no thanks. But if I am not pitched when a product may be useful to me, I will never be presented with the opportunity to make a choice.

    I love choices. I love living in a world where I am presented with a plethora of choices every day. It sharpens my thinking skills and gives me opportunities to be exposed to products I may enjoy.

    I also love watching great marketers and learning from them. When I encounter a new way to promote, I watch closely to see if it works. If it does, I research to see why it works.

    If a marketing method fails, I watch closely to see why it failed.

    But what I don’t do is begrudge the pitch. Whether I like it or not, I always find something I can learn from it.

    And that is the beauty of marketing.

    Author's Website April 21st, 2008

  30. From Lillian

    The problem is that Matt does not allow you to correct the order error if you mistakenly click the button as the order options are prefilled. Its kind of like those pop ups that say click cancel which really means the opposite.

    Thank God Amazon & Ebay ask for confirmation or to confirm your order.

    Author's Website April 21st, 2008

  31. From Nicole

    Lillian/Mark Schrader, I work for Matt and I answered your email through our customer service email.
    Why would you write that post when I VOIDED your accidental order in 2 hours of your email to us? And $497 may be a lot of money to you - it is to many - it is not a big product for us. In fact, Matt never sold the home study course for less than $997. The HSC is not his “seminar.” It is the recordings of the seminar that cost $5500.
    Matt gives clients many opportunities to opt-out before they are ever charged - forced not hidden continuity. What no one understands is that having the reiteration of the continuity plan details on the order portion of the form is typically done automatically for us when we create the form in our usual software. With the new technology used on this salesletter/order form, a programmer adjusted the order form not knowing what mattered and Matt didn’t notice. When it was pointed out, Matt had it changed.
    And before I saw this post I answered Lillian/Mark letting him that the order was voided and I asked him a question. If Matt were trying to “trick” you why wouldhe have sent the confirmation email that you replied on to cancel this order? Instead of an answer I got contradictory, circular logic (which isn’t easy to accomplish).
    I guess Sylvie is right in that so many, are so trained not to trust that they don’t give you a chance to nicely give them good service. Or maybe some people just like to yell ad threaten others for fun.

    BTW, we have received many thank yous…