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Not-So-Shocking Responses to Shocking Report

Disgruntled copywriterWhen my wife released her controversial report, Internet Marketing Sins, we received mixed reactions. As expected, of course.

Some people thought it was about time someone spoke out on these underhanded tactics and stupid marketing tricks. Others praised Sylvie’s efforts and gushed her with appreciation.

Others, on the other hand, didn’t feel as… appreciative.


The positive side about this whole thing is, we received about 7-8 times more fan mail than we have hate mail. If you want to take a look at some of them (with identifying information removed), click here.

However, to think we were going to receive only love mail would have been ignorant and naive on our part.

We understand that this report might ruffle some feathers. We knew it would peeve people off. And it certainly did, although not as much as we expected.

(Are we that desensitized?)

But we also understand that it might seem hypocritical to some people as well. After all, we’re asking for email addresses — albeit for the sole purpose of notifying subscribers when subsequent parts will be released.

There are no sales pitches, and my wife is 100% transparent. But some people still have denounced this strategy outright. Mind you, some have done so without even reading the report. Which proves my wife’s point.

You see, they’re cynical and skeptical about our “real intent,” and think the report is a front for something else. Perhaps something nefarious.

I can appreciate that.

In fact, my wife has answered that concern specifically, on my forum. One thing to keep in mind is that, my wife’s detractors have good reason to feel that way because of the very nature of the report’s message.

People have become desensitized and cynical, especially when such reports come out. And that’s EXACTLY the reason why my wife put it out there.

Really bad marketing has given legitimate marketers (and the Internet marketing industry as a whole) a bad name. And it’s making any attempt, whether it’s magnanimous, ethical, commercial, or otherwise, instantly suspect.

People are understandably skeptical and doubtful. Especially of those who speak out against the very thing they are skeptical about. But what they don’t understand is, they are, in fact, proving my wife right.

It’s sad, really.

Incidentally, some people have questioned or denounced her attempt for a variety of other reasons — many of which are not even about the message itself.

For example, a few were neither positive nor negative, but were simply indifferent. While they praised her efforts, they believed her attempts will fall on deaf ears and that nothing will change.

One person said, “Crooks are crooks, and this report won’t change things.”

I believe that’s true, too.

But the objective of this report is not to change the minds of the obstinate or hardened, but to sway those who are new to Internet marketing, and are sitting on the fence contemplating such tactics or emulating those who do perpetrate these “sins.”

However, while my wife’s report may not directly reform the most belligerent “sinners” out there, some self-admitted former sinners have joined in the chorus, and a few have emailed us, in private, thanking us for changing their minds.

Good for them!

What I do find kind of funny is that some people have condemned my wife’s report for more insignificant reasons — reasons other than its content, or the way the report was issued or promoted.

For example, some people have said that our emails notifying them of this report are worthless and considered spam because we are arguing with people who may have a valid point. And that’s perfectly fine.

But the funny part about this one is that my wife specifically covered this on page 112 of her report, where people simply feel that an email someone has asked to receive is reported as spam simply because they didn’t like it.

A “sin” on the part of the consumer. And remember, my wife covers both sides of the issue — both bad marketers and bad consumers.

What’s even more funny is that the person who emailed us did so anonymously. Luckily, the person sent his message to us by hitting “reply,” so their complaint included our original email along with their unsubscribe link.

(Clickety-click, barbatrick!)

Another example is, a few people feel we are “bad to trees” because the report is formatted in such a way that it makes it hard to print — even though we quite specifically formatted it to make it easier to read on a computer screen.

Many have even praised us for formatting it in such a fashion.

While I do appreciate their concerns, I find this kind of funny as well because of the fact that we issued the report in PDF — i.e., electronically — which clearly is demonstrative that we are “kind to trees.” Is it not?

After all, if we formatted it in such a way that it not only made it hard to read but forced people to print it out on their printers, wouldn’t have this been seen as an equally bad gesture?

Boggles the mind.

Nevertheless, the point is that you can never please everyone. And thinking that you can, or trying to do so, is an uphill battle if not impossible.

Granted, one person was concerned he would miss out because he is visually impaired, and some of the graphics, which contained text, were not readable to them. So my wife went out of her way to prepare a more accessible version. It’s available on the download page.


(By the way, as kindhearted and considerate as my wife is, she has just notified me that she has prepared a printer-friendly version, too.)

All in all, this report has definitely shocked a lot of people. Fortunately, in a good way. It’s meant to shake a few people up. It’s meant to make some uncomfortable, because discomfort is the catalyst for change. More importantly, it’s meant to cause people to THINK.

And personally, I look forward to my wife’s second installment, which will be out in a day or so.

She’s almost done right now.

Even I have no clue as to what she’s writing about. This is her little project, and I must admit that the incessant click-clack sound of her motivated fingers stabbing her keyboard in the last couple of days makes me as excruciatingly curious as the rest.

But just like everyone else, I have to wait. And I am really looking forward to the next part.

If you haven’t downloaded it, here’s a list of the chapters included in the first installment of Internet Marketing Sins.

  1. Warning!
  2. About This Manifesto
  3. A Note From Sylvie Fortin
  4. Sleight of Hand Continuity
  5. Upsell Hell
  6. Limited Time Offers
  7. Hammerhead Marketing
  8. Feast or Famine Marketers
  9. Next 10 Coming Soon
  10. Get The Word Out!

After registering at the bottom of the page, you can download part #1 immediately, and will be notified by email as soon as parts #2 and #3 become available.

For example, in the next installment I believe she will be covering “Slave Owners,” “Arrogant Jerks,” “Piggy Back Marketers,” “Guru Bashers,” and “Me Too Marketers.”

Let me repeat, there are no sales pitches or hidden offers.

The report does contain links to relevant resources here and there. And in the interest of full disclosure, some of these include our own. But these links are not, in any way, mandatory in order to read and benefit from this report. It’s completely up to you to click them, if you want to.

(By the way, watch out for part #2, where I believe my wife covers “Guru Bashers.” And it’s not for the reasons you may think.)

Nevertheless, what do you think of the report?

About the Author

Michel Fortin is a direct response copywriter, author, speaker, consultant, and CEO of The Success Doctor, Inc. Visit his blog and signup free to get tested conversion strategies and response-boosting tips by email, along with blog updates, news, and more! Go now to http://www.michelfortin.com.

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29 Replies to “Not-So-Shocking Responses to Shocking Report”

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  1. From Internet Marketing Sins By Sylvie Fortin…My Take | The Profitable Business Edge 2™

    [...] Michel Fortin gives his take on all of the responses on his blog here. [...]

    Source Website August 3rd, 2008

Comments

  1. From Joseph Ratliff

    Michel,

    I have read the first installment…and once again you and Sylvie have provided an example of high quality content…that actually moves my own individual free line, which is hard to do.

    I love at the end of this blog post where you said:

    “The report does contain links to relevant resources here and there. And in the interest of full disclosure, some of these include our own. But these links are not, in any way, mandatory in order to read and benefit from this report. It’s completely up to you to click them, if you want to.”

    My comment on that statement: The fact that you actually have to make that statement is a sad reflection of the current state of marketing.

    In my opinion, it’s foolish for a content provider NOT to provide relevant resources linked within their writings, and if that content provider has gone through the efforts to produce that very relevant resource…by all means that content provider has EVERY right to link to it without prejudice.

    The value of the content provided will dictate whether or not the reader will trust and follow those links…but the action of linking to your own resources in and of itself, should not be discouraged.

    Author's Website August 3rd, 2008

  2. From Melissa Ingold

    I sent an email directly to Sylvie with my comments, but I wanted to post them here as well.

    Dear Sylvie,

    Your report really struck a chord with me, simply
    because it’s not just about pointing fingers at the
    “scum” marketers and condemning them for their
    actions with a bunch of complaints.

    Instead, your tell-it-like-it-is report lays out
    each no-no marketing technique, explains why it’s bad for both marketer and consumer, and offers a way out, if you will, for the Internet marketer committing the sin by outlining an easy and actionable plan for change.

    But what really makes this report so great, is the
    fact that you don’t takes sides between the internet marketer and the consumer who supports the marketer.

    We have to admit that as consumers, we can be pretty dumb about what we spend our money on online sometimes. So as buyers we do play a part in IM sins simply because we’re supporting them. But as you said, if we stop buying from the “scum” marketers, then they’ll have no other option but to change their ways (that’s if their reputations aren’t shot by the time they do).

    Unfortunately, change isn’t going to come about from one side, it’s only going to happen if we unite (IM’s and consumers), and your report is an eye-openingstart.

    Great job Sylvie, and I can’t wait to read the rest of your report!

    Author's Website August 6th, 2008

  3. From Coach Fit Babe

    Loved the article. If someone upsells too many times; I don’t buy from them. I use different names to my email address (ex. Bfortin@ email) when I signup for something to see who is giving out my email addy; then I drop that person.

    It is funny when you go to a site that says OTO or has a time limit for purchase i.e, last day for sell is tonight at midnight and then the letter is dated over a year ago. I don’t purchase anything from them either.

    Brenda aka CoachFitBabe

    Author's Website August 7th, 2008

  4. From David T. McKee

    Dear Sylvie & Michel:

    I love this report and it occurred to me to use it as my guarantee. So I am thinking that on my sites I will place this document, so that the consumer can download it along with all the links to your site, and then simply state: “I guarantee that my products and services follow the commandments of marketing laid out here, and I will never commit the following sins against you, my valued customer.”

    And then, of course, follow through on that promise.

    David T. McKee

    Author's Website August 7th, 2008

  5. From Michael Madden

    No offense, Sylvie, but it’s extremely hard for me to take your words too seriously.

    After all, a number of years ago, when I was starting in IM, I was referred to you and your workaholics4hire company for assistance.

    I contacted you…

    …and contacted you…

    …and CONTINUED to contact you - only to be blown off and ignored. Total indifference to my plea for assistance.

    Never ONCE did you, or a staff member, even attempt to respond and tell me to go to hell.

    At least then you would’ve acknowledged my existence, had that of happened.

    Was it my lack of “Guruness” I wondered?

    I agree wholeheartedly with one of your points, however. Our actions reflect badly on not only us, but those whom we associate with, or occupy the same industry with.

    In this case, your actions have contributed to not only my current distrust of you - but your wonderful husband, as well.

    You see, as often as I felt tempted to purchase one of his products, I still couldn’t whip my credit card out.

    Would I be merely a shadow in the night to him, as well?

    Who knows…never got that far to answer that rhetorical question.

    Although I appreciate the spirit of what you’re trying to do, perhaps this would’ve come off as less self-serving had it of been penned anonymously.

    Understand, I don’t dislike you. Heck, I STILL pray for you in regards to your health challenges and happiness with Michel…and I’ve never met either of you personally.

    I just don’t trust you, which renders your words somewhat impotent. I suppose we’ll see how committed to transparency you two really are when it comes time to approve this post, though.

    Good luck to the two of you.

    Michael

    Author's Website August 8th, 2008

  6. From Sylvie Fortin

    @Michael Madden - Hello Michael

    Thank you for your comments, even though it is quite clear that you have taken personal offense to me for reasons that surprise me.

    It really is a shame that we never met, and had the chance to clear the air. Not because I need or want everyone in the world to like me (although it would be nice) but because you are ignoring an important message due to your feelings about the messenger, and that could be to your own detriment.

    So, let me help clear the air so you don’t have to continue believing things about me that simply aren’t true.

    To your issues concerning your prior attempts to retain the services of Workaholics4Hire…

    First, it is important to note that I have zero records of ever having received an email from you, or a quote submission. I searched our old databases and our online help desk and wasn’t able to locate anything from you. So, my guess is that it got lost in the ethersphere or trapped in an over-eager spam filter. However, let’s assume that you did send in a quote request, and that it occurred “a number of years ago” as you mentioned, and I’ll even go so far as to assume that it was received by our support staff at the time…

    In this case, I’d like to explain what was happening a few years ago so you no longer have to feel that we slighted you on purpose.

    A few years ago, we found ourselves in the uncomfortable position of having too many projects and not enough staff to fulfill them. Essentially, we got way too busy, and we had to literally close our doors to new customers. So, we added the following to our quote forms…

    “Please note: Due to a substantial demand for our services, there may be a delay between your quote submission and our response. Our focus is always on satisfying our current clients first, and ensuring that each and every one of our clients are given the best possible service. Therefore, we limit the number of new clients we accept. Your submission will be placed on our waiting list and we will contact you for your appointment as soon as we feel we can potentially accept you as our newest customer.”

    My staff was instructed to file incoming quote requests so that we could get through all our current projects first before taking on new clients. The intention was to open those files as soon as we had openings.

    The openings never happened, so those filed quote requests were never responded to. Quite simply, we never did have the staff to handle the new stuff properly.

    Our old methodology just didn’t work well for us. See, we were trying to do “everything for a few” instead of “specializing for many”.

    Our old methods had to change, and it took months for us to modify our back end systems.

    So, we re-launched about a year and a half ago with the “catalog” of services, and completely eliminated the quoting system we once used. This was the only way we could accomodate our clients more effectively.

    And now we are transitioning again, because even the catalog system has caused us to be too busy for our own good. In fact, in the next few weeks, only a very small handful of services will be available from our site, and we are currently considering shutting them down as well and redirecting people to alternate resources.

    All of this is because we insist on quality over quantity.

    Our one and only priority has been to maintain quality. The minute we get so busy that we can’t maintain quality, we know it’s time to change the system.

    We’ve had major problems with finding quality freelancers with the work ethics we demand. As you’ve likely discovered, there is a major problem with a lot of freelancers who want to get paid to be at home…they just don’t want to work.

    Granted, we managed to keep a core team of high quality people we love working with. But we have always needed more people than was available, to keep up with demand.

    Having said all that, it is my hope that you can understand why you’re angry for what I see are the wrong reasons. You’re angry with me personally, because you’re assuming that I did something deliberately to you personally.

    The facts are that if I had accepted you as a client at that time (assuming your quote request was even seen) it would have done YOU a huge disservice because we would not have been able to give you the quality service you deserved.

    Selling services is very different from products. If you sell 1,000 units of a digital product in a day, it’s no big deal. But if you sell 1,000 hours of service in a day, it is a huge problem because you won’t have the available trained staff to deal with it.

    And that’s the problem I faced at the time. Too much work, not enough trained people to handle it.

    I had to take the uncomfortable position of closing the doors to new clients, not because there was anything wrong with YOU, but because I cared enough about our clients not to take their money if we couldn’t fulfill our promises.

    However, Michael, this doesn’t change the fact that you felt personally slighted. So much so that you’ve been carrying this resentment for years. This entire time, I never knew you, much less how you felt. And I find it sad.

    Thank you for your well wishes about my health and happiness. I appreciate it and wish you well too.

    Hopefully, you and I will be able to meet one day and share a coffee together, allowing past misconceptions to remain in the past and begin a new chapter.

    Author's Website August 8th, 2008

  7. From Sylvie Fortin

    @David T. McKee - Excellent idea, David! In fact, just last night I was talking with Michel and we considered creating an Internet Marketing Sins oath badge people could could use to demonstrate their willingness to commit to remaining ethical in all things.

    Now that you’ve mentioned this, I think we will do it after all. :)

    Author's Website August 8th, 2008

  8. From Sylvie Fortin

    @Coach Fit Babe - Exactly! Good for you for taking a consumer’s stand against BS Scarcity tactics. It’s the only way anyone will change their ways. :)

    Author's Website August 8th, 2008

  9. From Sylvie Fortin

    @Melissa Ingold - Hey Melissa

    You said “Unfortunately, change isn’t going to come about from one side, it’s only going to happen if we unite (IM’s and consumers)”

    Absolutely spot on! This report covers BOTH sides and provides alternatives to common mistakes and sins. This way, it has the potential for real change, rather than just a long winded rant against the sinner. :)

    Author's Website August 8th, 2008

  10. From Michael Madden

    @Sylvie Fortin -
    “First, it is important to note that I have zero records of ever having received an email from you, or a quote submission. I searched our old databases and our online help desk and wasn’t able to locate anything from you. So, my guess is that it got lost in the ethersphere or trapped in an over-eager spam filter. However, let’s assume that you did send in a quote request, and that it occurred “a number of years ago” as you mentioned, and I’ll even go so far as to assume that it was received by our support staff at the time…”

    Your inference was clear, Sylvie. Your record keeping…not so much.

    Here’s one of the actual responses I got in return;

    Subject: Thank you - Your Request Has Been Submitted

    From: Workaholics4hire Support (Add as Preferred Sender)

    Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2006 2:17 am
    To: mm [ at] Broadcasterxxxxxx.com

    Next step…

    We will review your application as soon as we have an opening for a new client.

    This may take some time, as we have been experiencing a significant demand in the last few months.

    To ensure that we are able to fully commit ourselves to your account, we ask for your patience during this waiting time.

    We look forward to serving you as soon as possible!

    Please feel free to continue browsing throughout the site.
    http://www.workaholics4hire.com

    We welcome your comments, questions and suggestions.

    To your Success…!

    Sylvie Charrier
    President and Lead Project Manager
    Workaholics4hire.com Inc.

    Perhaps I was wrong in assuming that when your schedule was cleared, I’d be hearing back from you when I read the words “We look forward to serving you as soon as possible!.

    One would have thunk that if you weren’t able to take on new businees ever again, out of respect for those of us who invested their time, the professional courtesy of a response would have been in order, no?

    “but because you are ignoring an important message due to your feelings about the messenger, and that could be to your own detriment”.

    Slyvie, trust me, I’m quite capable of multi-tasking and separating the message from the messenger.

    As I stated in my private email to you, people aren’t pushed into repentance. They pulled. Through example.

    I never once saw you seeking forgiveness for any misdeeds you may have willingly or unwittingly committed along the way - and pledged a changed heart…but you seemed mighty quick to point the finger of righteous indignation everywhere else.

    “So much so that you’ve been carrying this resentment for years. This entire time, I never knew you, much less how you felt. And I find it sad”.

    um, not quite, Sylvie. No persistent ill-will whasoever on my part. Matter of fact, I had forgotten about the contacts with your company until I read your report. It was then when I began wondering when I would see admissions of what I believed to be your own sins.

    You see, it came off like a Jimmy Swaggert tongue lashing at all those poor sinners…and we all now know what Jimmy was doing during his off hours.

    The point you’re attempting to convey through your report is necessary, however. Although my sphere of influence lies outside the IM world, I’m well aware of the shenanigans that go in within this industry.

    Frankly, I’m just surprised so many people fall for those tactics anymore.

    be well

    Author's Website August 8th, 2008

  11. From Sylvie Fortin

    @Michael Madden -

    You said “No persistent ill-will whasoever on my part.”

    I based this assumption on your own statement of “In this case, your actions have contributed to not only my current distrust of you - but your wonderful husband, as well.” I call this ill-will indeed.

    The email you kept all these years was an autoresponse message that automatically went out from the old form submission system. It was never a personal response from me.

    That tells me how very long ago this issue took place, and helps me understand why I never saw it. I agree that the old record keeping system was horrid! That old system was so buggy that we completely replaced it a long time ago. It kept dumping records so we replaced it with Freedback so we could maintain all form submissions into a permanent, 3rd Party database.

    Still, the vehemence of your response tells me that you are still angry, even though you now know what was happening behind the scenes. Even though you now realize that I personally have never seen your original request.

    I am truly sorry you feel this way, especially since you are angry at me personally for things I neither had knowledge of nor had any personal connection to.

    And Michael, please look at the time stamp of the autoresponse. Perhaps you weren’t aware that in June, 2006, I found the lump in my breast and was officially diagnosed in August?

    Honestly, Michael, I am shocked at your anger! Did it never occur to you that perhaps I was going through a traumatic experience at that time and especially in light of having been told I had less than a year to live that I might have other things on my mind?

    Did it not occur to you that perhaps I would not be ABLE to take on new clients, especially if I had no idea if I would still be alive to work with them?

    Are you suggesting that I apologize to you for a sin here? What’s the sin? Being sold out of tickets to a concert you wanted to see? Is my sin that I was dealing with a life threatening illness, one that occupied my attention for many months while I struggled to survive? Or should I apologize for not being able to foresee the future accurately and that I should have anticipated my staff’s inability to keep up with future demand?

    The only thing I can apologize for is the technical glitches that caused us to appear unfriendly, which were entirely unintentional.

    So, I apologize now for having a form code that was buggy. My bad.

    But I will state again so it is abundantly clear.

    Failing to accept new business at a time when I was unable to take on new business is not a sin. Failing to inform you of that fact would have been, and you were clearly told, before submitting a quote request, and in the following autoresponse, that you would be contacted if an opening ever arose. No openings ever arose, so you were not contacted.

    The issues I bring up in my report are about being transparent, which we always have been.

    Anyway, I truly wish you the best of luck in your future endeavors. It’s too bad we couldn’t see eye to eye, but not everyone sees the world the way I do, and I’m ok with that.

    Author's Website August 8th, 2008

  12. From Michel Fortin

    @Michael Madden - Michael, you’re going out of your way to post this comment on my blog, and even respond to my wife’s reply to you with an accusation, one which has nothing to do with the report.

    And you’re making insinuations in the process?

    (Jimmy Swaggart? Huh?)

    You even kept the original email sent by my wife’s autoresponder, and went out of your way to copy and paste it here. At least your submission was acknowledged — something many companies don’t even bother doing.

    Clearly, Michael, you do feel some resentment and harbor ill-will in some way.

    I’m perplexed.

    Please re-read that email you have pasted above. It says: “We will review your application as soon as we have an opening for a new client.”

    Pretty clear, doncha think?

    But you’re telling me, you made a submission to Workaholics4Hire, received a reply that says her company is tremendously busy and backed up. And you feel my wife is hypocritical?

    My wife’s database of submissions and requests is about 30,000+. My wife’s company receives over 3,000 applications and quote submissions a month.

    So you mean to tell me that you expected her to personally respond to every single one?

    You expected a courtesy response. The response you received is pretty clear to me, no? But even then, that’s a personal grievance on how your submission was treated — not you.

    But you took it personally.

    THAT is pretty clear to me.

    I used to work for a temp-help agency (as the marketing director). We received hundreds of resumes, quotes and applications each and every day. And this is common throughout the entire temp-help and freelance industries.

    Do you expect all of them to respond to every single submission, too? Gosh, that would take a full-time staff of many to do just that!

    What about eLance.com and others like them who get hammered each day with quote submissions and requests? How about resume sites like Monster.com and CareerBuilder.com?

    Do you think the person who posted a job (or posted a bid) should personally respond to every single submission, too?

    I’m not only perplexed but also disappointed.

    Needless to say, my wife did at least respond to your comment here, which you still clearly resent.

    Bottom line, don’t tell me you didn’t take that personally, because you did. And you are.

    Here’s an aside for you:

    The email you quoted is dated Jul 08, 2006. Did you know (and I’m sure you did, because you mentioned being aware of my wife’s health challenges):

    1) July 2006 was the time Sylvie was undergoing tests, which led to being diagnosed for Breast Cancer? And…

    2) We were getting married in just a month? (Which, immediately thereafter, my wife was whisked into surgery to get a radical mastectomy, followed by months of chemo and radiation therapy?)

    If you feel any slight aimed at you, I want to apologize on behalf of my wife and her company, because it was certainly not intended.

    But at the same time, I don’t think I need to apologize for my wife’s company to choose who to do business with. That’s up to her and the way she runs her business. Being picky is not a sin. It’s called DISCRETION.

    Author's Website August 8th, 2008

  13. From Joseph Ratliff

    Well, aren’t we having fun now. :)

    Speaking of that awful time in 2006 (for Sylvie)…

    I’m just glad Sylvie made it through ok.

    I am also glad that Sylvie put out this report, in my mind it almost resembles that friend (the state of IM) that needed to get something off of their chest.

    The discussion, rants, complaints, compliments, comments and such are all just “pent up” discussion that needed to be carried out about 18 months ago.

    Thank you Sylvie for putting it out there.

    Now, where is part 2 and part 3 huh? :)

    Author's Website August 8th, 2008

  14. From Rick Butts

    Michael Madden -

    I don’t know you are - we’ve never met.

    But, I know WHAT you are - a troll.

    Trolls are people who find it a valuable use of their time to post mean or unnecessarily snarky comments on a blog in order to get attention.

    The best advice is “don’t feed the trolls.” And, though I see you are getting your fair share of smackdown for your remarks - you are lucky that Michel and Sylvie even allowed your bad breath to ever even make it on the page.

    Malcontents abound online and seem to be forever whining about something that cannot be solved without a time machine.

    And the only people who don’t get this kind of jackanape feedback from time to time are those who don’t do anything at all.

    Michel and Sylvie are successful - serious - professional people who do not deserve this kind of blowback but, as I said, it happens when you are successful. The fruit comes out of the trees!

    Best to you all,
    Rick Butts

    Author's Website August 8th, 2008

  15. From Joseph Ratliff

    Amen brother Rick! :)

    Author's Website August 8th, 2008

  16. From Michael Madden

    @Sylvie Fortin -

    I based this assumption on your own statement of “In this case, your actions have contributed to not only my current distrust of you - but your wonderful husband, as well.” I call this ill-will indeed.

    You inaccurately claimed that I harbored resentment for years against you. I believe if you look up the definition of the word, you’ll likley see it defined as persistent ill will. It lingers. Festers. And eventually evolves to hatred if unresolved.

    Not even remotely close in this instance in regards to you. I moved on - but was reminded by your report. Big difference.

    “Failing to inform you of that fact would have been, and you were clearly told, before submitting a quote request, and in the following autoresponse, that you would be contacted if an opening ever arose. No openings ever arose, so you were not contacted”.

    I don’t believe you can show me in that autoresponder where it states I would be contacted only IF an opening occured. The inference was clear:

    “We look forward to serving you as soon as possible!”

    The question I came away from that with was not IF you could take me on, but WHEN was the only thing that entered my mind.

    And no, I was not aware of the timing of my contact correlating with your cancer. I didn’t even know you, nor follow you. How could I have known?

    “Michael, you’re going out of your way to post this comment on my blog, and even respond to my wife’s reply to you with an accusation, one which has nothing to do with the report”.

    Had I have known at the time of posting this that there was a private email I could have contacted sylvie on, I would have aired my grievance in private.

    My apologies for using your board.

    However, to claim that my position of “physician, heal thyself” has nothing to do with her report is somewhat disingenuous.

    I have no personal beef with you people. I aired my grievance in regards to a practice that at the time I aired it seemed somewhat hypocritical.

    I now see there was more to the story than I initially knew.

    “You even kept the original email sent by my wife’s autoresponder, and went out of your way to copy and paste it here. At least your submission was acknowledged — something many companies don’t even bother doing”.

    Michel, I have EVERY email sent from that account dating back to 2002 saved in my sent box. It’s not like I saved it for my futuristic Perry Mason ‘gotcha’ moment.

    The ONLY reason I pasted it here was in response to her claim that she perused all her records and found nothing from me, followed by her somewhat acerbic inference that it was never sent.

    “My wife’s database of submissions and requests is about 30,000+. My wife’s company receives over 3,000 applications and quote submissions a month.

    So you mean to tell me that you expected her to personally respond to every single one?”

    I have autoresponders, Michel. I know how they work. I also have the ability to ‘personally’ correspond’ with 30,000 people in less than 30 seconds if I so choose, just as she/her company could’ve chosen.

    And no, under the circumstances I wouldn’t have expected HER to respond. I would’ve hoped that her company would have informed me that I would remain on-deck with the bat in my hand when the game was over, though.

    Look, we don’t see eye to eye. It’s a professional courtesy thing with me. You both disagree. That’s your prerogative. I respect that. We conduct business differently, that’s all.

    Let’s squash this now. I spoke my peace. You both spoke yours. I’ll leave it with the timely words from a Dave Mason song;

    “There ain’t no good guy, there ain’t no bad guy…there’s only you and me, and we just disagree”

    Author's Website August 8th, 2008

  17. From Michael Madden

    @Rick Butts -

    “The best advice is “don’t feed the trolls.” And, though I see you are getting your fair share of smackdown for your remarks - you are lucky that Michel and Sylvie even allowed your bad breath to ever even make it on the page”.

    Are you one for dispensing advice you’re unaccustomed to following, Mr Butts? After all, by interjecting yourself into a conversation not involving you, aren’t you in a way’feeding the troll?’

    Besides…personal insults are the sure sign of a tired mind with no argument. That’s about all you brought to the table, sir.

    I should’ve known the incestuous IM mafia would’ve been here to censor unpopular speech involving one of there own.

    All along I assumed Sylvie was a big enough girl to handle her own business. It appears others didn’t have as much faith in her as I did, by the looks of things.

    Author's Website August 8th, 2008

  18. From Mindy Koch

    It is a shame that this post commentary has become what it has become. However, it is also enlightening.

    I am reminded that our internet marketing sins, whether intentional or not, are out there in the ether and can come back to bite us in the butt.

    I know that I have made my fair share of IM sins/mistakes and that they are in google, email inboxes, and private forums to be dredged up against me if anyone were to so desire.

    We know that we as marketers are going to be able to please some of our customers all of the time, all of our customers some of the time… but never all of our customers all of the time.

    We can try to but we have to take the hits when they come. And they will come.

    For me, these hits often stopped me in my tracks. I just wasn’t thick skinned enough to withstand them.

    The difference between myself and the more successful marketers around me is that they withstood them and kept on going.

    Mr. Madden, your post has reminded us all of the importance of treating each customer as an individual. It is virtually impossible to do as the number of customers grows exponentially. This impossibility does not, however, excuse us from its importance.

    Mr. Fortin, your explanation of what your wife was going through at the time of this miscommunication reminds us of the importance our lives/health/relationships have over our ventures. When life interferes (as it does), sure our ventures may suffer… but it is what has to happen to focus on what is really important. You focused on the right things.

    I agree with the “no good guys, no bad guys” post.. but I don’t see the need to continue to disagree.

    Mr. Madden, now that you know that your email correspondance was during some of the most stressful times of the Fortin’s entire lives… perhaps we can cut Sylvia some slack and forgive her for her past mistake and give her a chance to show you who she is when she is able to be her best self.

    It is like Randy Pausch said in his last lecture. Give people time to show you their good side. He believed that if we wait long enough, the best in people will come forth.

    I think this report by Sylvia is an example of her best coming forth and I for one support what she is doing here.

    I hope that the above conversation will not detract too much from the much needed voice in the wilderness that this report by Sylvia can be to all of us as marketers.

    Just my thoughts.

    Author's Website August 8th, 2008

  19. From Sylvie Fortin

    @Mindy Koch -

    Thank you for your wisdom. :)

    Author's Website August 8th, 2008

  20. From Amy Flynn (Amy~AllAboutEnergy)

    Sylvie,

    I trust and pray you are feeling well and happy.

    I am looking through Part 1 and really am not sure why you had to write this report. Seriously.

    The IMers doing this know full well that they are scum and playing dirty. They know full well that they are hiding information with the intention to deceive and continue to do so when there are so many options to NOT to and be successful today.

    Yet they continue. And some are the biggest names around. Disgusting. Your non-naming report is not going to change that. Had you named names … well then there would have been a good chance they would have publicly worked to correct their ways and make sure everyone knew and benefited from their new honesty.

    I have never bought from these guys and won’t.

    Re the customers. I don’t see why you need to write this up! LOL! EVERYONE is responsible for reading the Terms and Conditions before agreeing to ANYTHING. Even if the offer appears to be free. If there are T and C. Read them. If you don’t, well then you are stupid and deserve to be duped.

    Read the WHOLE sales page, ESPECIALLY the small print. This is such a blatantly obvious thing to do, I can’t believe you have to address it. Again, if the buyer does not, well then they are stupid and deserve what is coming their way.

    Don’t make allowances for stupid buyers. Please. Deceptive marketers and stupid, trouble making buyers deserve eachother, IMO.

    If a buyer is that close minded and decides that ALL internet marketers are dirty based upon a couple of bad experiences - do you really want these people as your customers anyway? They are the ones who will always find something wrong, complain, need extra attention and demand your time.

    Honestly though your report is well written and I LOVE the EASY CONFIGURATION for the online reading, however it seems to me what I’m reading should be obvious to any “FULLY PRESENT” human being - on either side.

    Bottom line. These people, sellers and buyers are trance walkers and not awake or present in the moment. Both are Sheep. I am not sure your well written report has the power to correct that.

    It would be great if it did.

    In Appreciation and Joy!

    Amy

    Author's Website August 8th, 2008

  21. From Shanika Journey

    I read part one of your report and I am glad you brought out to the front all the problems that is lurking on the web. Some of the “sins” you have mentioned I have been aware of for some time so I avoided many of those marketers over time.

    But there are a couple of big name marketers that have used a couple of the sins you mention in your first report that actually angered me a month ago. Then one particular marketer angered me even more that I truly do not want any of his products ever again. I was also pretty angry at the guy who referred him to me. I unsubscribed from his list and those other 2 marketers feeling like a used piece of tissue.

    And it was strictly because their sales tactic was aggravating me because I had to say no more than 4 times just to get the product I purchased. Then they bombarded me with emails trying to sell me again, but with affiliate products they didn’t have a clue about. They only used sections of the product’s copy to convince me to get the sale. Alot of their emails were not even comfortable. What I mean by that is they were not customer friendly. it was BUY THIS, BUY THIS, THIS IS FROM THIS GUY SO BUY THIS TOO!!!

    I only trust a handful of marketers. Because they actually talk to you like a person. And all they’re marketing tactics are pretty straight forward, to the point, not a hussle just to open my wallet. And they have gotten me to buy things from them and interested in buying more within the next couple of months that are of GOOD use to me. As a matter of fact, I’m going to buy more from there because of their content, honesty, the value I have already gained from them, and they realize there is a person who actually is reading their letters or sales pages.

    Wish more people were more upfront about alot of these sins. Because it is very true what you said. It affects how I look at everyone that wants to sell me something online. It can greatly affect every marketer’s sales, no matter what their niche is.

    And I haven’t thought about it until I read what you said. I am becoming desensitized from it all. I’m weeding through everything to find people I really feel would give me genuine value with their product and services everyday. And I will go right by many of them if I even see a tactic I may have already been a sucker for, or seen more than 50 times elsewhere that makes me