Start Your Own Business or Grow an Existing One

Hundreds of step-by-step video tutorials and tools show you how to find profitable markets, get product ideas, source the best products to sell, build profitable websites easily, and drive qualified traffic. Plus, discover how to outsource it all.

Everything you need to start or grow your own highly profitable web business — regardless of size or model.

  • 1,000s of ready-to-sell products
  • Ideal for any skill level or business
  • Learn anywhere, anytime, 24/7
  • Use it risk-free for a full 30 days

Want More? Click Here For Details »


Written by Michel Fortin
Comments

Extortion: The New Get-Rich-Quick Scheme?

Extortion: The New Get-Rich-Quick Scheme?

guntothehead 150x150 Extortion: The New Get Rich Quick Scheme?Today, a client has requested, out of the blue, a refund for copy­writ­ing work per­formed last year. Yes, last year!

Can you believe it?

Over seven months have passed and this one client is ask­ing for his money back. His excuse? “I need the money.” Of course, I refused. But he sounded des­per­ate, so I pre­sume he won’t be happy with my decision.

Likely, he will pull tooth and nail to make his case, likely by high­light­ing all the neg­a­tives, warts, and things he doesn’t like as to jus­tify his case.

The thing is, while the client did not hide the fact that he’s strapped for cash, we had an agree­ment. I can sym­pa­thize, but why should that be my responsibility?

As Larry Winget often says, “A deal is a deal.”

I ask for 100% of the fee upfront. No excep­tions. I work hard enough as it is to mar­ket my ser­vices, find clients, and then write copy for my clients. Why would I want to work twice or three times as much just to get and/​or keep my money?

Even though there’s an agree­ment in place, which states that I give no refunds but do offer a 30-​​day revi­sion period for rewrites, it still irks me on a num­ber of levels.

For one, I know the econ­omy is tough, so peo­ple are try­ing to extract money in any way they can — even ille­gally, it seems. Why? Because it’s easy. And they’re lazy.

Why some­one would try to suck money from some­one who earned it legit­i­mately is beyond me.

Unscrupu­lous mar­keters don’t hold an exclu­siv­ity on this tac­tic, I can assure you. There are just as many scam­mers who buy as there are those who sell.

But the sec­ond rea­son is, some clients pay by credit card. And that opens up many risks and cans-o’-worms, such as the poten­tial for unfounded chargebacks.

(I whole­heart­edly agree with copy­writer Susanna Hutch­e­son, who told me that peo­ple who ille­git­i­mately file charge­backs should also be charged with a crim­i­nal offense.)

Sure, I’d win if a charge­back were to ever hap­pen. I have an agree­ment in place, and I kept up my end of the bargain.

But it still pushes me to work harder in order to fight the case, makes me go through all the unnec­es­sary has­sles, and it leaves a neg­a­tive mark on my mer­chant account.

In fact, I heard some who had the gump­tion to say, “It’s sim­ply eas­ier to ini­ti­ate a charge­back, because I don’t want to go through the has­sle of ask­ing for a refund.”

Huh? Come again?

Charge­backs are not “easy but­tons” for get­ting refunds, let alone for get­ting money that’s legally no longer yours.

Shame on you if you filed a charge­back because you failed to do your due dili­gence, are too lazy to ask for a refund (if you really do deserve one), or are too stu­pid to approach the mer­chant first (you never know, they might be will­ing to do more for you).

And double-​​shame on you if you ini­ti­ated a charge­back just because you needed the money. That’s bla­tant extor­tion, pure and simple.

Don’t you know that ask­ing for a charge­back, when you don’t deserve one, will cause you more work? But hey, it doesn’t mat­ter, right? The client is always right, right? It’s not your has­sle, and it should be the merchant’s, right? No.

It does matter.

The client is not always right.

And it’s not up to the mer­chant, either.

Sadly, it pains me to see how easy it is for peo­ple use such bla­tantly fraud­u­lent, albeit legally pos­si­ble, tac­tics to get money. What pains me even more are those who think, “But he’s rich, he makes a lot of money, surely he doesn’t care.”

Believe me, we do care.

It’s called hav­ing integrity. Honor. Respect. Decency.

Above all, we care because we need to pro­tect more than just our reputations.

Charge­backs, par­tic­u­larly ille­git­i­mate ones, are not lit­tle, casual, inno­cent busi­ness prac­tices with insignif­i­cant expense that do no harm and can sim­ply be writ­ten off. They’re nei­ther part of doing busi­ness nor part of the cost of doing business.

They can hurt you in more ways than you think.

So all vent­ing aside, what should I do? Well, I’m com­ing to some con­clu­sions. They may not be the best ones, and they are not yet writ­ten in stone. But they are no doubt becom­ing increas­ingly appeal­ing to me. Here are a few of them…

For one, as Paul Han­cox once noted on Twit­ter, “If com­pa­nies can do credit checks on us, shouldn’t we be able to do credit checks on poten­tial customers?”

I think that’s a splen­did idea.

But even bet­ter, and like Susanna pro­posed, I think I’m going to stop accept­ing credit cards for ser­vices we sell — whether it’s copy­writ­ing, con­sult­ing, or coaching.

Just checks, cash (i.e., wire trans­fers), or money orders.

Will I lose some busi­ness because of this? Absolutely. But at least I know the busi­ness I do get is paid for, and I don’t have to fight any unwar­ranted charge­backs for ser­vices ren­dered as promised, poten­tially dam­ag­ing my credit score.

After all, if you bought cable TV but failed to turn on your TV for what­ever rea­son, would you be enti­tled to a refund from the cable com­pany? No.

Sim­i­larly, if an attor­ney loses your case in court, are you enti­tled to a refund for his legal ser­vices? If you had surgery but it wasn’t a suc­cess, will the doc­tor no longer be enti­tled to pay­ments for ser­vices per­formed? Of course, not. A deal is a deal.

Sure, when peo­ple pur­chase the ser­vices of a copy­writer, they are buy­ing results — or the hope thereof. But that’s no dif­fer­ent than a lawyer or a doc­tor. Just because we’re free­lancers or ser­vice providers, does it mean we deserve it any less?

Believe me, I do under­stand that some mar­keters pro­fess you’ll achieve suc­cess and get-​​rich-​​quick results that never mate­ri­al­ize because their teach­ings are worth­less, and their exag­ger­ated claims and promises, empty.

But how often is that the case, based on actu­ally doing the work? Not often.

More often than not, I sub­mit that it’s based on poor exe­cu­tion — or most likely, non-​​execution — of what they were taught, given, or sold.

(In copy­writ­ing, I see this with refund-​​seekers who never used the copy I wrote for them, dumped it after get­ting just a lit­tle bit of traf­fic, used it but in the wrong way, changed it them­selves, or worse yet, used the copy, got great results, but lied about them.)

Sure, some mar­keters are mis­lead­ing and wrong­fully promise the stars. (Read this awe­some arti­cle by Sean D’Souza on the role of get-​​rich-​​quick merchants.)

As you know, I spoke out against such prac­tices many times on this blog.

So they are cer­tainly not excused.

But lazy peo­ple will always expect effort­less riches. Because no mat­ter what promises you were told, no mat­ter how big your dreams, no mat­ter how quick you can get rich with any pro­gram, the shock­ing truth is that they all require that dreaded, four-​​letter word:

WORK. Yes, work.

As in, roll-​​up-​​your-​​sleeves, nose-​​to-​​the-​​grindstone stuff.

Speak­ing of which, I also loved this recent arti­cle by one of my favorite per­sonal devel­op­ment coaches, Larry Winget. I’m a believer in the law of attrac­tion, but I also believe that you attract suc­cess not just by your think­ing but also by your doing.

On another yet related note, there’s also the issue of clients who not only lack integrity but also com­mit what I believe are down­right crim­i­nal acts.

Fraud­sters. Ser­ial refun­ders. Thieves. Buy-​​and-​​refund seek­ers. Charge­back addicts.

Well, a cou­ple of years ago, some of my Inter­net mar­ket­ing friends and I were hav­ing a very spir­ited debate out­side the sem­i­nar room at an Inter­net mar­ket­ing event. It was prob­a­bly one of the best dis­cus­sions I’ve had with my col­leagues on the subject.

It all started when some­one pro­posed cre­at­ing, and pos­si­bly sell­ing, a “refund report” of sorts — a com­piled list among mar­keters of known ser­ial refun­ders and fraudsters.

Seemed like a good idea, but the con­tention was that it could be ille­gal to some degree (we also had an Inter­net mar­ket­ing lawyer among us, too), given the pri­vate and sen­si­tive nature of the infor­ma­tion being disseminated.

Both sides had equally impor­tant points.

While some pro­posed that it could be sold, oth­ers said that it could only be passed around pri­vately among mer­chants. And a few were totally against the idea altogether.

What do you think?

Do you think such a “refund report” would be use­ful to you? If it were to be sold, would you buy it? Or at the very least, would you con­sider get­ting a copy privately?

I per­son­ally wouldn’t sell it. But I would cer­tainly love to get my hands on a copy if such a report were to be made avail­able. After all, we have a grow­ing list of our own of peo­ple we refuse to do busi­ness with.

As Susanna Hutch­e­son pointed out when I men­tioned this on Twit­ter, “I see no way any­one can keep us from pri­vately shar­ing infor­ma­tion. That would hurt the bad clients as much as the pub­lic.” And I agree with her.

By the way, you might be won­der­ing how this would work.

The process one might use is to have a script made up that would block orders from known ser­ial refun­ders and thieves as they check­out. For exam­ple, our sys­tem cur­rently bans IPs, emails, and spe­cific mail­ing addresses.

And by “thieves,” I also include peo­ple who have a his­tory (i.e., they’ve done it at least three times) of buy­ing a dig­i­tal prod­uct, and then request­ing a refund moments later.

Give me your thoughts. I’d love to hear them.

On a final note, Susanna also bril­liantly pointed out that Ama­zon Pay­ments won’t accept ser­ial refun­ders’ requests for charge­backs. I think that’s a fan­tas­tic idea.

She said, “I love the way you can get your money in about 24 hours, too. I’ve used them for a while and like them so far. No (need for) pay­pal at all.”

It’s also the rea­son why Ken Cal­houn and I use Amazon’s on-​​demand Cre­ate­Space ser­vice to pro­duce, sell, and ful­fill orders of our Copy­writ­ing Suc­cess Sys­tem 8-​​DVD series.

No inven­tory. No mer­chant accounts. No ship­ping on our end.

So far, I love them. Cre­ate­Space is fast, merchant-​​friendly, and easy to use. If you want to pro­duce and sell CDs, DVDs, books, even audios and videos on demand, you might want to con­sider using them. As for Ama­zon Pay­ments itself, I think I’m going to try them.

Ulti­mately, I think we need to be care­ful, espe­cially in a tough econ­omy. Scams are not exclu­sive to busi­nesses. There are just as many scam­ming buy­ers as there are sellers.

Def­i­nitely have a con­trac­tual agree­ment upfront. Def­i­nitely try to get 100% upfront, too. Oth­er­wise, if you feel you must, get 50% as a deposit and invoice the remain­der once the project is com­plete — although, I’d do it the moment I deliver the first draft.

And avoid credit cards for high-​​ticket ser­vices. Look into Ama­zon Pay­ments. If you take checks or money orders, wait until they clear your bank before you begin.

Plus, if you smell a red flag, con­tem­plate doing credit checks on your clients, espe­cially for large pur­chases — such as ser­vices of $1,000 or more. Even if they pay 100% upfront. Or at the very least, check references.

Yes, check references.

Finally, if you have a list of known scam­mers and ser­ial refun­ders, whether you com­piled one your­self or, if it’s legal to do so (please check with your attor­ney as this is not legal advice), learned about it from some­one else, don’t be afraid to use it.

In other words, don’t be afraid to say “no.”

Sure, it might seem like you’re turn­ing down work. How­ever, by being selec­tive, you will not only increase your busi­ness dra­mat­i­cally and open up your sched­ule for bet­ter clients, but it might also save you a ton of undue has­sles, heartaches, and hardships.

Let me fin­ish by ask­ing you…

What do you do to avoid scam­ming clients? Espe­cially in a tough economy?

About the Author

Michel Fortin is a direct response copywriter, author, speaker, and consultant. Visit his blog and signup free to get blog updates by email, along with response-boosting tips, tested conversion strategies, the latest news, free advice, additional resources, and a lot more! Go now to http://www.michelfortin.com. While you're at it, follow him on Twitter.

Like this blog post? Buy me a coffee or send me a tip!

Last 5 Posts By Michel Fortin

Other Related Posts


Share
Category: Opinions
Tags: claim, client, conversion, copywriter, copywriting, expense, fee, fraud, freelance, integrity, legal, marketer, marketing, paypal, refund, scam, selling, speaking, success, twitter
This post was written on Thursday, May 21st, 2009. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
Your First Copywriting Client In 14 Days Or Less

Your First Copywriting Client In 14 Days Or Less

New! Discover this copywriter's personal system for getting copywriting clients in as few as 14 days. It includes both online and offline marketing strategies. Click for more »

«
»
  • Michel, how timely.

    Today I got a chargeback from a customer who just flat-out LIED to the credit card company. It was for a digital product, so he has my product -- and my money.

    And I admit: it makes me angry.

    Recently, my book keeper called me and said, "Do you know a customer named [NAME WITHHELD]?"

    I said, "Yes, I've met her at a couple of seminars, and she's a good customer."

    To which my book keeper responded, "No, she's not; she buys everything you sell... and she ALWAYS gets a refund."

    So we blacklisted that customer in our shopping cart.

    And I've also had a couple of copywriting client horror stories, too. It's why we adopted the policy, long ago, of accepting only checks or wire transfers for copywriting work.

    So to answer your question: yes, a "Refund Report" would be quite valuable to me... and yes, I would PAY for it.
  • That's sad news indeed. While I've recently maintain a balance between selling goods and services, I can understand how such practices could weaken our marketplace as a whole, in addition to my personal revenue.

    Thanks for the tips, especially the one about Amazon Payments service. I'll not hesitate to move on that right away.
  • Bravo, Michel! I'm so glad to see your continued emphasis on respect, honesty, integrity and character in your recent articles -- it's a much-needed breath of fresh air, and a reminder to us all, about the importance of treating people right, and the golden rule.

    As much as I'd like to be, I am not diplomatic when it comes to handling troublesome customers, I look at them in the same way as I would a drunk in a bar who's a troublemaker; I don't believe the "customer is always right" -- frequently the dysfunctional customers get handed off from one vendor to another, sowing problems wherever they go. However as a colleague reminded me, with web 2.0 and twitter and forums etc, all it takes is one aggrieved pain in the rear customer to go slander and cause damage, as unwarranted as it might be.

    Sometimes all it takes is a probing question to find out the problem, and resolve it for them, they just want to be heard. So I do try a bit, to resolve things initially. Othertimes there's genuinely abusive, mean, parasitic customer-people out there whom we need to set firm boundaries with and let them know to take their business elsewhere. Such is a challenge of being in front of the general public, there's a bell shaped curve and some of the folks shouldn't be dealt with, on any level. And you can tell, after years, the "warning signs" in emails, eg demanding/unreasonable tone of voice, impatience, rudeness and the rest of it, that it's a troublesome person.

    The book "Codependent No More" by Mary Beatty is great on setting boundaries (and dealing with troubled personal relationships), there should be more dialogue like that for business boundaries as well. "Grin and bear it" isn't always the right answer.

    There's also bad customers who will run to the AG (state atty general's office) and file a complaint for no good reason whatsoever... the one time this happened to me, was for a customer who bought, refunded a week later, which I granted, then he wanted to re-buy the same exact thing the following week. I refused service and blacklisted him, he went to the AGs office, who found no merit in his case, and I countersued him for damages for making a frivolous claim and lost work time on my part, plus damages. I don't take being mistreated from anyone, I'm very litigious when it comes to protecting my rights, both intellectual property (for people who try to copy my stuff, I've filed 17 lawsuits over the last 19 years, winning 13 of them).

    Bottom line: treat people right. Don't steal their concepts/intellectual property/website copy/graphics designs. Don't make frivolous refund requests, especially for nonrefundables like services or other things that take someone's labor and time to deliver. And I like to set very firm, very legally enforced boundaries to protect myself and my business interests. I even had to send a C&D to Amazon this past week, (and won!) for them listing a used DVD in violation of my EULA for one of my video titles. Once you develop a reputation for being tough, fair and having firm boundaries, it makes life easier.

    Many folks probably bend over and acquiesce, and sometimes that's the right decision. But it's useful to post policies in the FAQ section of sites for those who don't, and have plenty of testimonials from happy customers, to send a clear message about "don't tread on me", and to be treated fairly and honestly, with respect.

    Keep up the great columns...

    -ken
  • Oh and yes a "refund report", or more accurately the "Serial Refunders Sh#tlist" (lol) would be great to pass around (gotta love that alliterative copy), I'd thought about initiating something like that for the trading industry, but would be concerned about potential legalities...

    I do in fact have and use a blacklist of people I will not sell to, these are prior refunders and/or problem customers; I'm glad that so far, in exactly 10 years of being online w/my trading business (founded 1999), I can fit all their names on a single side of a single sheet of paper (though it's admittedly getting crowded).. out of thousands of customers I've got a refund/blacklist of less than 200 people, eg a thankfully tiny percentage standpoint. And yes I check that list manually before I approve a sale to anyone, it's next to my computer.

    -k
  • Jeanette Cates
    Michel - one of your talents is bringing out into the light the things that bother many of us. But unless you have a great group of fellow marketers to discuss it with (we do!) you're not sure whether it's you or "them." So I'm sure you've reassured many marketers that they are not alone in having these sleeze-balls refund on them.

    Like everyone else here, I've had the Buy-it-Refund-it customers - often within minutes, especially at Clickbank. It would be nice if third-party processors such as Clickbank and others did at least request a reason for the refund - or make them wait a decent time (like a WEEK!). But so far that isn't happening.

    I think it's also the reason that many of us have gone to delivering our digital products via password-protected "member sites" At least that way you can turn off their access. Plus I've stopped providing downloadable videos - they must watch online in order to consume. That way they can't download and run.

    I went to cash up front for my consulting services years ago and have so far been lucky that no one has requested a refund - but will definitely consider alternatives as you've mentioned above should that trend show up on my doorstep.

    Again, thanks for your insight!

    Jeanette
  • Thanks for addressing a long standing pet peeve - of mine, and of just about every online merchant I happen to know personally.

    The media's perception is an entirely simplistic and distorted one: in 99 out of 100 cases it's always about "scamming merchants" - a make belief world of black and white, all too frequently held up both by the courts and by legislators. (Consumer protection associations are very vociferous on this as well, but at least that's understandable because they are focus groups by definition.)

    What it reveals, of course, is a nanny state view of humans: every man and his dog's got to be protected from the "powers of evil", i.e. merchants, vendors, producers, sellers. "Self-determined, sovereign consumer/citizen" - no way! Not in the fairyland of "consumer protection" watchdogs...

    People who adopt a wilfully dishonest approach of entitlement like the one you've reported are essentially crooks, period. Crooks, what's more, who will generally be supported by the credit card banks' policies that will almost never side with the merchants, no matter how strong their case may be.

    As an aside in view of your remark about the client preferring to trigger a chargeback in lieu of asking for a refund: there's one aspect to this affair that doesn't get addressed sufficiently in my view. While I admittedly have no hard statistical data at hand to back this up, I'd assume that for the average consumer the difference between a "refund" and a "chargeback" is pretty fuzzy at best. Thus, many of them will simpy opt for the easier way out.

    E.g. here in Europe where I'm living chargebacks are an almost entirely unknown mechanism as far as consumers are concerned. So they'll happily go for refunds instead. Doesn't necessarily make them more honest but at least merchants tend to avoid the hassle with their payment processors which mutliple chargebacks will usually provoke. So whenever we've encountered issues with chargebacks, it was exclusively with U.S. customers.

    This definitely calls for better and sustained consumer education - most customers are simply unaware that triggering a chargeback may actually HURT the merchant way beyond losing the sale.
  • Hey Michel

    Great post as usual.

    I've got a small list of people I've blacklisted and will never sell to again.

    I'd pay to get access to a list of other such scammers -- they're the ones that not only refund, but share and even sell your products illegally.

    Cheers
    Kyle
  • Brian
    After having worked directly with the public (sales, tech support, taxi driver(lol)) for over 20 years, I've found that the vast majority of the time, if a customer brings up the old "The customer's always right", it's when they're wrong.
  • It is true that customers aren't always right. I just hate it when they use that as their advantage. Our economy may be not that good right now, but I don't think that one must exploit other people for their benefit.
  • Over the last few days I've had six (yes 6) chargebacks awarded in my favor.

    Personally I find the whole thing stupid.

    I have to go to a WHOLE lot more trouble to prove that a charge back is unwarranted than I do to issue a refund on products I sell and generally speaking if anyone asks for a refund from me for any legitimate reason I give it.

    So these idiots have claimed charge backs on products they clearly bought and intended to buy (hint: opting in for the update list after you buy a product is a bit of a giveaway).

    I was always brought up to believe that your integrity is everything.

    And all through my life when I had tough times I never compromised my principles.

    Things being difficult for you is NOT an excuse to try to screw someone else under any circumstances.

    Do the right thing and things have a way of turning out okay in the long run...no matter how dark they look now.

    Kindest regards,
    Andrew Cavanagh
  • Thanks for your insights.

    I agree 100%. And I think the "bad apple" registry idea is worth checking out. I dont sell anything online (yet), but if I did, I'd certainly be interested.

    You know, it really sucks when you unknowingly deal with dishonest people who are always trying to get their money back for no valid reason. It makes 'em downright thieves in my book!

    Thanks for the Amazon tip...I'll make sure to check it out later today.

    Merrill Clark
    Crestview Marketing Services
  • How about a "Wall of Shame." A page where you present facts: show the client's name, give the background, state your case, show the contract, show the work, etc.

    It would not be a secret document or blacklist handed around. It would be the facts, out in the open, in the sunlight (the best disinfectant). Of course, if they wanted to dispute the facts, they could sue you for libel.
  • Hi Michel

    Being an 'isolated' freelance copywriter, I've never ben sure about the extent to which other freelances have the problem of 'awkward' payers. After all, much as you may think that the work you've done is of a high standard, there's always the niggling doubt. And if one complains too long and hard about the complainers, there's always going to be that little voice inside the heads of outsiders who think: well, maybe this guy's not as good as he thinks he is?

    Since the beginning of this economic slowdown I've been asking for a 50% deposit. This does put off some people, I'm sure, but I've persevered with it in the light of other unscrupulous so-called clients who've tried in the past to get away without paying anything at all. Of course, they always have a well-thought-out excuse. The worst part of it is that, in the UK at least, it really isn't worth pursuing someone through the legal system for a few hundred pounds (or even a thousand!). The cost in lost time and emotional distraction far outweighs retrieving the money that was legally and morally mine to begin with.

    You may not believe this, but the latest problem I have is recovering the balance of the 50% deposit!!! It seems that some people will stop at nothing to duck out of paying the balance on their bill. The job's done, half the bill's been paid - why not offer some spurious reason for not coughing up? It's too easy to say 'I'm not paying'. Other than hiring a hit-squad, I don't know what the solution to these problems is. Maybe I should do what you do Michel - ask for 100% up front!!! Somehow, I don't think it would work for me.

    Regards, Mike Beeson, Manchester, UK
  • @Mike Beeson - While I understand your point about creating doubt, my complaint isn't about those who nitpick, although the recession does bring those out, too. I'm specifically talking about people who outright say "I need the money."

    It befuddles me when I hear (and yes, I've really heard this) people saying, "Hmmm, which product can I return to get some money back in order to buy this other thing?"

    In fact, it's commonplace, in the seminar industry, especially with those regular ones that are put on ever year, for people to ask for a refund on products the year before just before going to the next one. For no good reason other than the fact they need the money to go the next seminar.

    It's crazy.

    As far as your payment process goes, I ask 100% upfront and my business has increased. And the painful snags, decreased. Some have used escrow services for the deposit -- that is, they pay 100% upfront, it goes into escrow until the first draft is delivered. Just an idea (my wife, Sylvie Fortin, who owns her freelance agency for customer support staff, does this from time to time).

    Or, you can ask for 50% upfront, 40% before delivering the first draft, and 10% upon completion -- and, as an incentive, you can say "But if you pay upfront, I'll waive the remaining 10%. So you can pay 90% of the fee upfront and save 10%."

    Thanks for coming by and commenting.
  • Michel I freaking love you dude!

    I can't even count how many times I've had refunds on a product within 30 minutes
    and the video I was selling was an hour or two long. I am super quick to blacklist,
    block, and unsubscribe any customers that give me headaches.

    The worst is Clickbank... I won't even sell anything in the business oriented arena
    on Clickbank because the refund rates are atrocious. I was selling a product on
    there and had a 38% refund rate. Then I put it back on my own shopping cart system
    and it went down to our usual 3% refund rate.

    I won't name names but we all know who has pissed off and why the market is so
    refund friendly. This is what happens when people pee a little in the pool and realize
    they can get away with it. Eventually the pi$$ builds up!

    I am ABSOLUTELY for the refund report, I will pay for it, and I will contribute my
    blacklists if you need them.
  • Michel,

    Excellent post on an annoying problem..

    (A side note:) I am not certain the comparison to paying a Doctor who performs an unsuccessful operation or an attorney who loses in court are apt comparisons.

    They both work in fields protected from competition and, I believe, where they could lose their licenses for offering money back guarantees. Your situation is based on contract, not on monopoly privileges.

    Our relationship with our clients is based on free markets and our right of contract. We spell out on the front end our guarantees with how and when they are applicable. If someone violates the contract, it doesn't matter that attorneys and doctors don't provide reasonable guarantees.

    I think if such a blacklist were created, a mechanism for getting Off the blacklist should also be created. Otherwise you might see the same type of ridiculous things happening as happens with government "No-Fly" lists.

    Someone could steal someone's identity and demand refunds to keep the card alive longer before they steal and destroy the credit of a new victim.

    Mistakes happen. I'd be curious to know what mechanisms might be created to allow people to find out if they are on the list and how thy could get off.

    It could be the occasional losses would be cheaper and less time consuming to accept than creating, maintaining and servicing a blacklist which could become an albatross of victims of credit thieves and strange circumstances.

    Your option of being paid upfront in some manner other than a credit card is a much better idea for those who choose not to accept the potential losses with credit cards than creating a blacklist with its potential for unanticipated negative consequences.

    I suspect better idea(s) than a blacklist can be created and split-tested to see how they work. Perfection is not an option.

    The choice comes down to an imperfect Blacklist versus other imperfect options. Unfortunately the blacklist is probably the most likely to cause unjustified harm...

    And I admit, I have no idea how likely it is that the wrong person could end up on a blacklist nor how easy it would be for the cheaters to create new online entities to bypass the blacklist.

    Since there are myriad numbers of John Smiths, a scammer might just need to change the payment method and address to bypass the blacklist. If you tracked IP addresses, they would just have to go to a library or Kinko's and order from there.

    Blacklist participants would also have to change their privacy statement to say you can provide their information to others if you get shafted.

    I don't think a blacklist would halt someone who wants to steal. It would just inconvenience them.

    It might work. I just think we need to discover better answers.

    Live Long, Free & Blessed,
    Don Winfield
    http://secretsofwomenshealth.com
  • @Mike Beeson Once an invoice is issued here, it is considered accepted by the courts unless the other party decides to go through the process of complaining via registered letter. When people drag out payments too much (and in honesty, there are not that many of them), I send the outstanding invoice to a company that pushes it through the small claims court for me. Zero emotional involvement on my part for about 20% of the sum + damages. There must be a similar operation in the UK, surely.
  • A belief in lack does strange things to people. The only time i was married, it was to a guy who bought his favorite cologne, Drakkar, used the bottle until it was almost empty, and returned it to Sears. Same person who could spend $60 on a night at the movies thought it was worthwhile to go back to Sears every month and get another free bottle of cologne, because "sears could afford it.".

    Needless to say we didn't stay married long.

    I wasn't aware of the serial refunders until my first big hit in 2005. From then until now, the only way I've been able to deal with them is to bundle things that can't be stolen with their purchase. People who return don't get unadvertised bonuses or my time. If it's a legitimate return, I've had so few of those for it to be immaterial. The fraudulent returns are also few in number but still quite upsetting. If you teach someone something and they fail to act on it or absorb it, it's not like you get your time or efforts done on their behalf back.

    It's a difficult issue. If you build it into the cost of doing business, your clients suffer. If you ignore it you become an easy target. If you address it you're feeding into the negativity. Can't say that I have an easy answer.

    I agree with @Justin that Clickbank is the worst enabler. I've never had a refund rate higher than 7% for a single product or 1% across the board, but I will say that when we got to 7%, it was when we were on Clickbank. Immediately after pulling that product off Clickbank, it went down to less than one percent.

    As far as a serial refunders list... it's gotten to the point where my time is really precious. Not that anyone else's isn't... I can't work a whole day anymore is what I'm saying. So I have to really pick my battles. So though I think it might help, it's too much of a time investment for me to keep up with it or contribute to it.

    Good topic.
  • @Don Winfield - Don, I appreciate the response. And it's very insightful.

    But with the beginning, you're a tad misleading. Doctors and lawyers DO have competition. For example, consumers of elective surgeries and civil suit representations are prone to the same discretions a normal freelancer would have.

    They may have laws to protect them, but my point is, why would a freelancer be any different?

    A service is a service is a service. Sure, some freelancers will offer complete risk-reversal and make their fee completely contingent on the results. But even in these cases, when the results are good and the service provider paid, it won't stop criminals from trying to coerce more work fir free or, as I state, try to get their money back.

    You can say the same things about an accountant, a management consultant, or some other high-ticket professional service.

    The goal of my saying this was simple: a deal is a deal.
  • Scary! Not even something I'd thought of. So glad to have been forewarned. :)
  • Hi Michel,

    Great rant -- one of your most powerful ones to date IMHO. Michel, you won't ever have to worry about a refund request from me because I think your products and you are awesome.

    Yes, I've gotten refunders and chargebacks. Each time it's angered me because it's rarely a honest refund request like they ordered PC only software and they have a 10 year old Mac that barely connects to the internet.

    In fact, it's usually within 2 hours of ordering and a lame-o excuse. One refunder even asked for a refund for a product that I don't sell!

    Chargebacks can be rough and can be a lot of extra work that I didn't ask for. To date, I've never lost a chargeback dispute as a merchant.

    I make it a point to tell refunders that they should not order anything from me every again. I make it a point to remove them from all of my mailing lists.

    Ironic story... had a customer refund on a product of mine about 6 months ago. Four months later, she contacts me about getting an "evaluation version" of another product of mine because she's thinking of promoting it to her list. Are YOU KIDDING? You have already shown me that you're someone that I don't want to do business with.

    I think Ray Edwards made a great point: blacklist them at your shopping cart so they can't order. I've started to do that with my shopping cart for some of my products.

    Amember has this feature (I think) so you can block serial refunders from joining a site powered by Amember.

    I'm using Launch Formula Marketing's membership site script for my latest membership site to help prevent the serial refunder's tactic of downloading everything and then refunding. LFM will do a content drip as frequently as I set it up. It also *should* help with member retention rates as well.

    Take care,

    Mike

    P.S. Don't let one idiot ruin your holiday weekend. Go do something fun with your lovely wife and forget about the unethical folks for a while.
  • Maybe he should bring all his grocery store receipts to his local supermarket and ask for refunds on all the food he ate last year too.
  • david
    As a consumer and a marketer, I can see both sides. Some posts here are simply overreactions to an issue that indeed deserves more attention.

    I got refunded on a digital product this morning after only two days of usage. I called the company directly and asked for my money back for a number of specific reasons. Took about an hour of discussion, and they finally agreed.

    Regarding seven months after delivery that pushes all bounds of reasonableness. That is clearly a flat no.

    In an age of extremely well-crafted sales letters, I find that considerable hype is usually the rule and sorting through it is a task most average buyers simply aren't able to do effectively. Some buyers will take advantage of any situation. Most do not.

    If i have a product that fails to meet my expectation, the reasonable response is to return it, just like I would do with that new shirt that doesn't fit. That's what reasonably, and dare I say it, most honest people do.
  • Hilda
    I agree with what you are saying Michael, but is there room to discuss the other side to the story? My husband went to a seminar last year and invested in a business increasing training program from one of the gurus speaking there.

    Over the next several months he worked day and night to implement this program. To my dismay he agreed to pay on credit cards and at the time we could barely afford to keep our bills paid. Several months later, it became clear that making the program work in our niche required social proof, of which we had none (even though he had been in that field for many years, he'd never sold anything like this). So he'd invested significant money to take the program and the promises of how much money could be made were not realized by us. We were now on the hook to pay the credit card company for this course, but never made any money from it.

    Long story short, he started pushing to get a refund and was flat-out ignored by the seminar promoter and the merchant. Finally, weeks later, we decided to charge it back. While there was a 30 day refund policy that was long past, the implementation and selling of our service did not begin for more than 90 days. While we needed the money, it was not the reason for charge back. It was simply that the promises the merchant and guru made were not kept. We were left holding the bag on all the expenses and the time lost that could never be recovered.

    Do you consider that to be a case in which charging back is legit? I'd be interested in your opinion...
  • @Hilda - I don't know what Michel would say because obviously I'm not him. But I think there's a CLEAR difference between a person who honestly tried and didn't make it and a person who is refunding just because they need $1000.

    As far as where someone mentioned an overreaction - if this was a case where a person was refunding based on not getting what they paid for, that's one thing. OR one isolated incident of someone hiring you to take your time to do something and then bailing, fine.

    But someone hiring you, benefitting from your work, clearly benefitting, and then refunding, sad to say it's becoming a trend. i am sub-contracted on a project now where someone started a movement to publiclly defraud a company in the form of refund requests. In public! A company that didn't do anything wrong. They made a contract with someone, and filled that contract. At no point did they lie or mislead anyone. And now they must spend a fortune on reputation management based on one person's experience - a person they REFUNDED by the way - because refunding and doing rap man is cheaper than dealing with a bunch of small law suits.

    I don't personally believe we should put more focus on it than is needed to vent and/or address the issue, but thinking of it as an over-reaction is a mistake I think. because it's one we all pay for in higher prices of goods, one way or another.

    MOST of the time refunds are legitimate. And my company has yet to refuse one, in fact we make it so customers can refund without involving us so we don't have to deal with the issue. But when they're not, it's a hard pill to swallow that one should just bend over and take it.
  • Jeff
    We've been running an e-commerce site for the past 10 years and have had our share of scammers and chargebacks.

    We use Verified-by-Visa, but it doesn't cover all transactions and most of the people in the chargeback dept at our bank (a large bank that is supposedly the 2nd largest processor) don't know how it is supposed to work. We've been using them for 10 years, but the chargeback customer service still don't seem to understand much about internet business -- all they know about is running physical cards through a terminal at a retail location.

    We've lost a few chargebacks that were supposed to "guaranteed" against fraud, due mostly to their incompetence and failure to follow their own regulations. After I raised hell by calling and writing Visa International headquarters several times, they got some heat and things have improved a little. But they still don't "get it" when it comes to internet business.

    Recently, I think I have found a better solution. A few months I started using a service at www.precharge.com that will actually GUARANTEE payment if you get a chargeback. They will even reimburse you for the fees charged by your bank to handle a chargeback. If they approve a transaction, they will guarantee the payment if turns into a fraudulent chargeback.

    They also have a service that will try to collect on your old chargebacks, but I have not tried it yet.

    We have found it especially useful in shipping orders to customers that want delivery to an address that is different than their billing address and for customers outside the US (where card address verification does not work). Many of the non-US orders are good, but until now we had no way to verify their card information. We've tried calling non-US banks to do phone verifications, but it is often impossible (have you ever tried to navigate a bank voicemail system in Hungarian?).

    The precharge service has let us accept some new orders that we probably would have cancelled because of our inability to verify their card. This is especially good for us, since first-time customers usually turn into repeat business (we sell a consumable product).
  • This is an excellent rant Michel about a growing problem. Kidos...

    Seize the Day,

    Rob

    Personal Asset Protection For Small Business Owners
  • Richard
    A circulating report would be very difficult to keep legal and up-to-date .
    Call it "Refund Abuse" and pattern it after Credit Reform plus ebay seller/buyer evaluation.. This could also help protect honest buyers from certain "Garbage Marketers" !
    There is a great on-line business here where every refund or charge-back goes into a members only database. Somewhere during the check-out process the customer is checked and the purchase is approved or rejected based on the number and quality of charge-backs.
    I am sure that there is, somewhere, a group of ethical millionaire digital product marketers that can get such a program set up and into action.
    Sorry I do not have the ability or where-with-all to do it myself.
    Richard
    PS I have never charged back for some of the garbage that I have purchased, however I never forget the marketers name. I never purchase anything from them again and any other marketer who offers anything from them as JV via eZine of eNewsletter also gets an "UnsSubscribe" mail along with removal from my WhiteList !

    PPS Thanks for the really good information that I enjoy receiving from you and you lovely wife.
  • This is the age on entitlement. The consumer, on average, believes they are entitled to every whim they choose to invent. As business owners, we are in charge of creating business models that are profitable despite this phenomenon. We have two choices:

    1. Price higher to offset these unjustified losses, which are expected to happen.
    2. Make it more difficult to do business with you...more stringent criteria, more detailed disclosures and agreements, more hoops to jump through.

    It's always disappointing to hear this come from a fellow business owner, but not surprising.
  • Absolutely not. You agreed to pay for a service, received that service and did not hold up your end of the agreement. You've committed theft here.
  • @Hilda - I can sympathize with your situation. I do agree that caution is in order because there are many "gurus" who exaggerate. But some things you said in your comment tells me otherwise. Specifically, you said:

    To my dismay he (your husband) agreed to pay on credit cards and at the time we could barely afford to keep our bills paid.


    Then why did you buy it?

    If you were to say, "Well, it's because we wanted to make money," the fact of the matter is, you are NOT buying money. You are buying instructions on how to make money. You are buying information, not results.

    Sorry to say, but if I were you, and if I were that strapped for cash as you said, I wouldn't have bought it at all in the first place.

    I agree that some unscrupulous marketers exploit this, but I must also add that many customers who know better exploit it just as well. Caveat emptor applies.

    You also said something else that struck me, and to be candid with you, it irks me a bit:

    Several months later, it became clear that making the program work in our niche required social proof, of which we had none (even though he had been in that field for many years, he'd never sold anything like this).


    And also this:

    Finally, weeks later, we decided to charge it back. While there was a 30 day refund policy that was long past, the implementation and selling of our service did not begin for more than 90 days.


    Then you should have reviewed the course within those first 30 days to see what was required, and decided then if the course was worth it. The merchant, therefore, is not responsible for your losses, particularly if you took 90 days to decide whether it was right for you.

    Or look at it another way.

    You bought a burger at McDonald's. But you decided not to eat it right away for whatever reason -- even if the reason is something beyond your -- or McDonald's -- control. (Say, you had to go to the washroom, or you received an important phone call on your mobile phone, or the baby's diapers needed to be changed, etc.)

    Would you be able to go back to McDonald's and ask for a refund on your burger because now it's cold? Of course not.

    A deal is a deal.

    Let's look at it differently...

    Say you go to Borders bookstore, and buy a $20 book how to build a dog house. Let's say the deal is you've got 30 days to review the materials.

    The deal, in this case, is the store's refund policy, who is the retailer for the original author. (Just like a seminar is for the speaker. Because when you bought the training program, you didn't buy it from the guru. You bought it from the seminar promoter.)

    Also, 30 days is, of course, exaggerated since most retailers have a 7- or 14-day return policy, at most. But I used 30 to simplify my example.

    You take 90 days to start implementing the instructions in the book. You start building your dog house, exactly as laid out. But only then do you find out that the author failed to mention the specific type of nail you needed to purchase, and you went out and bought the wrong nails (or the fact that the specific nails are not available in your area).

    So the dog house did not turn out as expected.

    Can you then turn around and go back to Borders and ask for a refund? Or even better, would you be in a position to issue a chargeback on the book you purchased at Borders? No. And doing so would definitely be illegitimate.

    Even though the store's refund policy is 30 days, you've passed it. It's not the responsibility of the merchant anymore, or the book's author. The deal was 30 days. Period.

    You had 30 days to review the material -- I did say review, and not necessarily implement it -- and decide if the program is something you want to pursue. And that's more than fair because you could easily return it within those 30 days, ask for a refund, no questions asked, simply because you don't want it anymore. (Some will say that's arguable, but it's very much within your right.)

    In the same way, the policy at most seminars is to give you 30 days to review the materials and conclude if the program is something you want to implement. Even if you had directly bought it from the author and not the seminar, your deal would likely still be the same.

    Granted, some authors will issue longer refund periods. But they don't have to. Under the Mail Order Act of 1975 (which governs most information products), the law requires a 30-day return policy on most purchases. (And in some cases, some products are exempt from this for anti-piracy reasons. But remember, I'm not a lawyer.)

    Bottom line, you are not buying the results. You are not buying money. You are buying instructions. Information. Do-it-yourself tutorials.

    That said, I agree that some marketers may be misleading. But under most consumer protection laws, you can return or exchange products within a given period of time if the product does not work as expected. In the information marketing industry, that equates to defective materials, inability to read the print (or play the video), etc.

    When it comes to information, the results are not and are never guaranteed -- unless stated otherwise, such as a marketer who specifically offers a second guarantee, above and beyond the mandatory 30-day period required by law. Otherwise, 30 days is all you have, and it's ample time to make a decision on whether you want it or not.

    The responsibility is yours, not theirs.

    Finally, look at it another way.

    If you had made profits with the program, would you turn around and share the profits with the author? Of course not. Similarly, just as you wouldn't share your profits with the author, you shouldn't share in the losses, either.

    Bottom line, a chargeback would definitely NOT be legit.
  • On a related note (about "refund reports") my wife found this...

    http://chargebackfile.com/

    Interesting.
  • I completely agree. The majority of charge backs are people wanting something for free.
  • barney
    An interesting and informative article, Michel.

    I agree with most of it, can definitely relate to and sympathize with the issue[s] mentioned.

    But the _refunder list_ scares me. Sounds too easy to get on it - only three times?!? - and impossible to get off. I can see the case where someone new to the arena might buy, then regret - or realize after purchase it was not the product it was thought to be -and then go the refund or chargeback route. A few such, and our newbie would be branded - apparently for life. Hey, I've bought more than one product that did not live up to the sales copy, and I'm certain you've done the same.

    That's what scares me about any _shared_ blacklist. Not that it exists, but that there is no standardized process for review/removal. Also, getting added to the list could have different criteria for different folk, e.g., say thee and me. You are well known in this venue, I'm a non-entity. For the sake of argument, say that you and I both have the same number of refunds/chargebacks for the same products. A likely response would be, "Hey, that's Michel Fortin. He's a good guy. Must have [accidentally] bought some crappy products. But I don't know this other dude: put him on the list."

    Another scary aspect is that your blacklist may contain folk who've never given me any problem, and vice-versa. What happens then? Do they stay on the shared list? If it's a public repository, who regulates it, insures that the listing is appropriate and not a matter of spite?

    Until the Internet Marketing community - particularly the IM branch - becomes self-regulating and self-policing, such a list scares the hell out of me. It is difficult to be an honest judge. But it's very easy to be a vigilante.
  • @barney - Very good points, Barney. And thank you so much for sharing them. On a related note, my wife found this website, which works in a similar way: http://chargebackfile.com. The only problem (or good thing) is, according to what I was told, people can be taken off the database if they pay, thus dropping the chargeback.

    Something to think about.
  • Jeff
    chargebackfile.com is run by the same company that offers the precharge service I mentioned in an earlier post.
  • @Jeff - Yup, that's how my wife found out. She read your comment and followed a link. I didn't know until later, lol! ;) Thanks. This is great info!
  • I don't like baseless refunds and unfounded chargebacks either Michel. However, that's the risk you, I and everybody else who decides to go into business offering a information product or service has to take. It's no different than if you owned a physical retail store and someone came into your store, picked up one of the items in your inventory and ran out without paying.

    Music companies and movie companies have dealt with this for years with people illegally duplicating their products and infringing on their copyrights. However, they are obviously still doing very well financially. It's unfortunate, but it's just a cost of doing business for them and it's a cost of doing business for us as well.

    Just like you admonish that couple who brought a course they couldn't afford to take responsibility for their actions, you have to take responsibility for yours (not saying that you aren't, btw). If you choose to offer a refund policy and someone chooses to take advantage of it, whether they deserve to or not, that's on you for offering that policy.

    If you choose to offer high priced services and let them pay by credit card and someone decides to issue a chargeback against you, you know that's a possibility when you decide to offer that as an option and you made the decision to do it despite the risks.

    Selling a list of "refund" buyers is illegal if you have a privacy policy that states that you don't sell information (like MOST information marketers do). So any marketer that does that and gets caught deserves whatever trouble or grief they will get as a result of it.

    I personally know of a marketer who woke up to $20,000 in chargebacks because someone signed up as an affiliate, stole some credit cards and paypal accounts and placed fake orders so that he or she can collect fraudulent affiliate commissions. Does it suck? Sure it does. But the guy makes multiple six figures every month, so while it sucks, it's not like its the end of the world for this guy either.

    The reason why marketers continue to accept Paypal and credit cards for their products and even for their services is because they make more money accepting these forms of payment than they would if they didn't accept these forms of payment. If they didn't, they wouldn't accept them. That's why a lot of companies don't accept checks, because of the high bounce rate and charges associated with them.

    I wouldn't buy a repeat refund list because it's just not that serious to me. Maybe I might feel differently when I'm making the type of money you are making Michel, but for me the amount of refund requests is so small compared to the amount of customers who do the right thing, I don't have time to try and worry about the few bad apples that might try to take advantage of me. My time is spent trying to find more people like the majority of my customers who are going to pay for the products and services I offer them, love them and use them.
  • By the way the blacklist still doesn't solve the problem if they want your product bad enough. All they have to do is have somebody else buy it for them and have that person request the refund.
  • LB
    Chargebacks are a stacked deck....the credit card issuer of course wants to keep their card holder happy so they are more than pleased to "investigate" the matter and grant the chargeback.

    I think the answer is to file civil suit against people who file obviously abusive chargebacks. It's not worth it for a $20 ebook, but in the case of a large sum there's no reason not to hire an attorney to pursue it and recover the attorney's fees as well.

    On the flipside, I had a refund request once where the person stated, "I know I agreed to buy this product and it's good, and I don't deserve a refund...but financially I'm in a bind and was wondering if there was any way I could get my money back." I was so stunned by their honesty that I gave them the refund. Hopefully karma shines down on me for it. :)
  • The woman writing about her husband's dilemma was, in my opinion, totally in the wrong and her (or his) decision to charge back the money borders on illegal. It's certainly, in my opinion, dishonest and bad business. I'm afraid I have no sympathy toward them. If they could not afford to make the purchase, they should not have done so. That's their fault. Their responsibility. Their poor judgment.

    But I hope those few of you who are hype-filled marketers learn from this. If you use hype in your marketing, you draw this type of customer and you'll get this sort of thing happening to you. Better to be low-key and honest and say, "yes, you might lose on this deal."

    Now, on the general problem. I personally do not care so much about the Clickbank refunders and that sort. The little deals don't concern me. I'm more concerned about a bad client database. I would like to see us copywriters build a database of clients who refund, charge back, give us trouble of other types as well.

    Michel, you and I had a mutual client that had I known about I would not have accepted. This is the sort of thing I'd like to see. I think we can protect ourselves by protecting each other. Many of these copywriting clients go from one of us to the other and they infect each of us with their poison.

    That's what I'd like to put a stop to.

    As per the charge back databases now online, they're great. Problem is, a lousy client can pay back the money he owes the poster and the poster can and does often take him off the list. He uses the list as leverage to get the client to pay. And many times, it works. That leaves others vulnerable to him yet again.

    I've used ripoffreport.com with much success. The owner of that site has never and will never take anyone off that site once they're on it. They can rebut what you say. But they won't be taken off. I've known of attorneys who tried and failed miserably.

    As Michel said, we work hard for our money. And it's a rotten shame that we often have to work yet more to keep what's rightfully ours.

    I've laid out some thoughts and ideas on my own blog if you'd care to read them. But we need to be proactive in this. It's a major problem and I promise you, it will only get bigger as the Depression deepens.
  • Jeff
    There is no risk to the bank for a chargeback, they simply pass the cost on to the merchant and collect their fees. With our bank (and I assume others are the same), they collect their fees even if we win the chargeback.

    With the current system there is very little incentive for the banks to side the merchant. They get their fees, win-or-lose. All the PR about banks losing money because of fraudulent credit card transactions is hogwash. It's the merchants who are absorbing the losses, not the banks.
  • @Roosevelt Cooper - Roosevelt, I know you meant your comment in kind and with no ill-will, but the fact that you would even think of what you said, in some way, is deeply insulting and rude. Not just to me but to all legitimate marketers.

    Let me break this down. You said:

    However, that’s the risk you, I and everybody else who decides to go into business offering a information product or service has to take. It’s no different than if you owned a physical retail store and someone came into your store, picked up one of the items in your inventory and ran out without paying.


    Of course, that's the risk we have to take. But taking the risk doesn't mean taking the illegal, fraudulent acts either. I find it stunning, even sad, that you seem to imply I should just "take it."

    Music companies and movie companies have dealt with this for years with people illegally duplicating their products and infringing on their copyrights. However, they are obviously still doing very well financially. It’s unfortunate, but it’s just a cost of doing business for them and it’s a cost of doing business for us as well.


    Not it's not. It may be factored in accounting-wise, but I resent the implication that it's something we should simply let go because it's "the cost of doing business."

    Going by your reasoning, since they are "doing well financially," they should just sit back, absorb the cost, and do nothing about it? Huh?

    Let me remind you that the recording industry has done innumerable things to counter, reduce, and fight against piracy and theft. Just because they're doing well financially doesn't meant they should just leave it alone.

    Being rich, especially when one is rich at the service of others and not at the expense of others, is not an excuse for being robbed, let alone being robbed and expecting they do nothing about it.

    It's no different than you saying, "Well, she wore provocative clothes, so she asked for it."

    And yes, it does feel like rape, if you ask me.

    If you choose to offer a refund policy and someone chooses to take advantage of it, whether they deserve to or not, that’s on you for offering that policy.


    Ahhh, but there's the kicker.

    You're talking about someone taking advantage of a refund policy. I'm NOT talking about refund policies at all. I'm talking about fraud and illegitimate chargebacks in lieu of refund requests, specifically BEYOND the refund policy.

    I'm not talking about NOT giving a refund at all. What I am saying is that, if the customer doesn't take advantage of the refund policy when the refund policy was in force, then it is no longer that merchant's responsibility.

    Just because a merchant takes risks as well as responsibilities, it doesn't mean the customer shouldn't take theirs, too.

    In fact, you mentioned that the blacklist proposed was against privacy policies (which is a good point, by the way), and that merchants must abide by those policies. Agree. But then, if we have to abide by one set of policies, why would we be forced to NOT abide by others, such as refund policies?

    Because, if a client is forcing a refund outside the refund policy period, that's exactly what's happening here.

    You can't have it one way and not the other.

    The next point you made is particularly demeaning and outright insulting. I want you to carefully think over what you said. You said...

    I personally know of a marketer who woke up to $20,000 in chargebacks (...). Does it suck? Sure it does. But the guy makes multiple six figures every month, so while it sucks, it’s not like its the end of the world for this guy either.


    Excuse me? Seriously?

    Hey, let's go rob a bank. After all, they have millions of dollars, not too many people rob banks anyway, and even better, they have insurance to cover their anatomies. So we're only making a small dent in their finances. No biggie.

    Well, guess what? Last time I checked, robbing a bank is still a serious criminal offence.

    It's as if you'd expect the bank to say, "Let's let this one slide. After all, we don't have time to waste on these once-in-a-while, gun-totting bank robbers. We have more important paying clients to take care of. Besides, they probably need the money more than we do."

    Can you see how thinking this way is wrong? I go back to my previous analogy that, just because we're rich, it doesn't mean we DESERVE to be robbed.

    Sure, I understand that some people who make a lot of money don't care as much. But it doesn't mean everyone should, or that it's right. It isn't.

    Again, I know you did not intentionally mean that in a bad or derogatory way. But I highly recommend you think again about what you said, and shift your thinking. Because, in my opinion, it's downright toxic.
  • Thankfully, I've not had to deal with chargebacks personally. My wife and I owned a retail business with multiple site for several years and never had one. I've not had one for my copywriting either.

    This article is making me rethink my policy of accepting credit cards though. I think I'm done with it. It's a very small percentage of customer that want to pay that way anyhow.

    And I always get 100% upfront or I don't do the work. Although I offer 2 edits within 30 days of acceptance of final copy, I've done rewrites for people as much as 90 days later.

    Why? Just because I wanted them to succeed. Of course, most of the time copy doesn't work isn't because of the copy. It's mostly because of some other lack in the marketing process implemented. Or the product isn't something people just aren't willing to pay for.

    I guess I'm one of the lucky ones that hasn't had a client ask for money back months later.

    As far as Hilda's situation goes, she and her husband need to bite the bullet and pay up. If it's a membership, then cancel but don't expect a refund. I find it hard to believe the marketer in question guaranteed results. I don't doubt he made it sound really good. If he actually guaranteed results he would probably set himself up for lawsuits, FTC problems, and a lot of unhappy customers. Just because the refund policy has expired, it's not a good reason to ask for a chargeback. Not only that it's unethical.

    If you can't make a business work after several months, you need to rethink the strategy and refocus your energy. It doesn't necessarily mean the business itself is bad or good.

    Thanks Michel. You've had a string of home runs lately. Keep it up.
  • I personally monitor all refunds. If the customer asks for a refund for more than one product, we simply remove that customer off all our lists. If they can't get our email, they can't buy.

    -Sean
  • I'd like to comment on Roosevelt's comment. I find it offensive and, as Michel said, rude. It's also insensitive and socialistic. Those of us who work hard and produce deserve every single nickel we have. If some of us happen to become wealthy doing it, that's fine. We deserve that wealth. We've earned it. And to say that, ah shucks, it's OK to steal from that ol' girl or that ol' guy, he has plenty of money, is the epitome of ignorance and socialistic thought. Just take from the rich copywriters. They have it. It won't hurt them. My gawd, some of you socialistic cream puffs give me a major pain. Go read some Ayn Rand. Read The Wealth of Nations. Become a capitalist. Then see how you like being rapped by the looters of society.
  • Michael,

    Generally I agree with your statements.

    Not sure if you addressed this, but what if someone says he just doesn't like what you produced? I am sure you have contingencies for that situation but how far would you take it?

    As for attorneys and doctors, I think they need to be held more accountable as well, except for attorneys who are taking the case totally on a contingency basis, though I think they would be hard pressed to take many cases on a cash basis if they think their chances of winning are very strong.

    If the doctor prescribes the wrong medicine, should I be entitled to a refund? I think so.
  • This is a very timely topic. While personally I haven't had requests for refunds from high-level project clients, within the last month two of my clients reported stories similar to Michele's.

    I coule of years ago I adopted a policy that high-ticket projects are only payable by wire transfer. And I also remove customers who purchase and return our products from our mailing lists and if we keep a list of "past offenders" - so if they try to buy an expensive product again we simply stop the transaction. MIchele, you're 100% spot on - the customer is NOT always right. ;-)

    Adam
  • Awesome post Michel!

    Always seems like you've got some good stuff to talk about. I totally agree with everything you're saying. It's 'effing ridiculous. "Alright. I put in all this work, executed perfectly, and delivered exactly what I promised and what you wanted done and what!?"

    It's almost a slap in the face. Actually, it is. Certain people will always want a handout and cheat just to get by and get their way. I don't want 'em and none of us need them.

    'Nuff said.

    ~Mike S.
  • David
    If the doctor prescribes the wrong medicine, should I be entitled to a refund? I think so.


    Perhaps. But if a customer thinks you "pescribed" him the "wrong" marketing material, even if others stand by it, then should that customer be entitled to a refund as well?

    Of course, it's up to you if you want to refund him. One can believe they should get a refund for not getting the desired result, while the one who provided the product or service can also believe they should be paid for their time regardless of the result.

    If the doctor or lawyer doesn't guarantee you'll get your desired results (which little to none do, anyway) inspite of their sincerest, best efforts, one can always look for another who might make that guarantee. If they don't meet that guarantee, though, what is one prepared to do?

    While I realize analogies can only go so far, the gist here is what was agreed upon in the first place. If both parties understood and agreed on the terms, including no-refund regardless of results, then that ought to be the end of it unless one desires to force the issue somehow.

    Michel, Ken, whoever else is interested, I'm actually thinking of that making and selling that so-called refund report. I'm aware of certain legal issues with that, but I'm willing to pursue that if anyone's interested.

    There's just a variety of challenges I'm not sure how to hurdle, but you can email me at D @ v 3z@ n AT D @ v 3z@ n com (just combine the characters but change the @ to a and 3 to e) and let's go over the devil in the details. Sorry to rather "hide" my email address that way as I don't really want to bring too much attention just yet, especially since I'm exploring a potentially risky venture.
  • Hmm Michel,

    Some very strong comments here from people all round.

    I often have people who opt-in to my free products, download the product and then 1 minute later they opt straight out. To refer to one of your previous comments, that feels like rape too.

    I have also had some people do that with products I sell. They just want something for nothing and they think they are very clever doing this.

    I actually feel sad for these people because they are misguided takers and they will probably amount to NOTHING in life because in order to receive you must be prepared to give. These people are nothing more than TAKERS.

    Anyway, on a similar theme, a couple of weeks ago I put up a post about flamers/abusers and haters - the people who just go out of their way to upset others by being nasty (for no good reason) on the social media sites (specifically Twitter). At last count it had 1,916 views with 65 comments. I believe it's the same sort of negative mindset. If anyone is interested in reading that discourse then here is the link: http://tinyurl.com/pd9uh2 .

    Fortunately, there are a LOT more DECENT people in the world than the ratbags. If we concentrate on serving them then we won't lose focus of all that is good. But, I agree Michel - it does stick in your neck when somebody does something rotten to you. I guess you can only pity them for being so small-minded. Their loss.

    Good post, as always.

    Gary Simpson
  • @Michel Fortin -

    Michel,

    Let me try this again because I think you are missing my point and it's not my intention to be insulting in any way. I have the utmost respect for you as a business owner and for the success that you have accomplished.

    Let me be clear...

    1. I do NOT think you should just accept being ripped off.
    2. I do NOT think that because you are successful you deserve to be taking advantage of. Crime is crime, whether you steal a 5 cent gum from the candy store or whether you pull off a billion dollar Ponzi scheme.

    Let me use me as an example because maybe that might communicate my point better.

    I have had customers submit illegitimate chargebacks against me. I have had people use stolen credit cards to buy my products and I get stuck with the bill. I sell on Ebay as well and I have had customers leave unfair negative feedback, which is insane, considering the fact that I offer an unconditional 30 day money back guarantee policy and they didn't even have the courtesy to ask for a refund before leaving negative feedback. So I'm not some socialist that's saying "Oh well too bad Michel you're rich, they are poor, you should just give them your money." The things that happen to you have happened to me as well.

    However, (and this was my point) these situations are such a SMALL percentage of the overall revenue that I have generated from my businesses that it's not something I spend a lot of mind share worrying about. So if they are such a small percentage of my income, I would only imagine that it's an even smaller percentage of your income and the income of other wealthy marketers.

    That's why I used the movie example and the example of the marketer, not to say you deserve to be ripped off because you are successful but to illustrate the fact that these incidents aren't going to make or break your business at the levels that I suspect they are happening to you..

    The movie example is a perfect example because we know how RAMPANT copyright infringement happens in that industry, YET these companies are still hugely successful in spite of it. Yes, they protect themselves, but they also factor it in as a cost of doing business as well because they recognize that despite all of the preventive actions that they take, there is still going to be some robbery that takes place anyway that they just can't do anything about.

    Regarding the refund, YES you are absolutely correct to not issue that refund. Regarding the chargebacks YES you are absolutely correct to fight them. You are absolutely correct to require 100% upfront for copywriting jobs to protect the investment of time and energy that you put into a project. In fact, I thank you for posting this blog post because you shared some fantastic ideas to protect yourself. The Amazon Payments is a brilliant idea.

    However, some of the other ideas seems like using a machine gun to kill a mouse. I'm not going to stop accepting credit cards and PayPal just because a few crooks can take advantage of me. I'm going to take whatever action I can to deal with those few bad apples, but I'm not going to punish my good customers by making it less convenient to do business with me because of the small minority of bad customers. And I'm certainly not going to buy a refund report. That to me seems excessive at best and criminal at worst (if you have those privacy policies in place of course).

    My point isn't that you shouldn't protect yourself. You absolutely should. However, there also comes a point where you can get so obsessed about this stuff that you start to attract it to your business. I know a guy in real estate that was so obsessed with people stealing deals from him, guess what happened? People started stealing deals from him.

    Hopefully I've communicated myself better this time.
  • @Roosevelt Cooper - Thanks for your clarification. I appreciate it. Now, I don't work weekends and I'm posting this from my mobile phone, so I'll keep this short and sweet.

    1. I'm not advocating not taking credit cards. I'm specifically considering it for services only. I don't worry about small purchases. I charge a minimum of $3,000 per project, and most saletters are $10,000-$15,000+. So you can appreciate how a chargeback is not small peanuts.

    2. I agree with you about attracting it if you focus on it too much. But keep in mind this has happened several times in my career, and I wasn't making a stink about it untill now. I just thought it was high-time I spoke out, especially right now, as slow economic times tend to force the crap out from the woodwork.

    3. Because the amounts are high, and because these illegal situations are more rampant during tough times, I doubt "machine gun vs. mouse" analogy is appropriate. Fraud of this nature is more analogous to a military tank.

    4. Speaking out against this is not so much about the actions themselves (although they are important and shouldn't be discounted) but moreso about the mentality and misguided justification these scammers use, especially the idea that "we can take it."

    That is rude, insulting, and indeed offensive.

    Again, thanks for the clarification. I know you didn't mean any ill, but it's the kind of thinking that's rampant. You were expressing what a silent, large number of people are thinking.

    Just as much as you say I shouldn't focus on this lest I attract it to myself, people with this kind of negative, scarcity mindset will never truly achieve prosperity. It goes both ways. ;)
  • Michel,

    I charge more or less what you do. I had two online sales letters last year for $20,000 each. These were not put on credit cards. In fact, as I recall they were from clients in Europe so they wired the funds directly to my bank. I always have overseas clients do that.

    But as I consider this over and over as I've been doing, I have come to the conclusion that I may go totally to wired funds. Even checks can be problematic.

    I use Revolution Money Exchange for small purchases. They DO NOT do chargebacks. So they're as safe as you can get. But, they're only good in the U.S. So, for overseas clients on small deals, I use Western Union.

    I'd like to come up with a better solution. But for now, that's what I think will work best. I'm just not going to accept credit cards any longer.

    I expect you'll win the dispute if it comes to that. But you never know. And who wants all the hassle? I don't. I'd also take it to law enforcement. It's illegal to steal last time I looked in a law book.

    And to those who say it's the cost of doing business . . . no, it's not. In some businesses, yes. But in the copywriting business we provide a service. We can't ever get our time or work back. It's gone forever. It can't be undone. The client owes us for that regardless of the outcome.
  • @Michel Fortin - Agree totally, thanks Michel!
  • On topic of business protection, I'm finding that it's important to protect one's business; some important new issues:

    a) jv partners/affiliates (run background checks on them to see if there's any regulatory and/or criminal background history, you'd be surprised! I use integrascan.com, there's others)

    b) add ongoing webinars and other access to non-copyable resources as part of big-ticket items; so that even if it ends up in torrents/rapidshare/mediafire/etc there's a lot of non-torrentable content that they'd miss out on, for info products

    c) education and dialogue re customer awareness; like the movie companies and riaa do for anti-piracy efforts for why entitlement mentalities like what was discussed is bad; eg its' the "software pirates'/bittorrenters attitude" which should be combated

    d) personal positioning: I am well known in my industry for being tough and not taking crap from anyone, and if anyone copies my stuff from an IP rights standpoint, or slanders me, or otherwise f's with me I send a C&D via email, if that doesn't work then I have one of my 3 attorneys file legal action; these virtually always get settled out of court in my favor, and is effective... Key is positioning to "make your house harder to break into than the guys' next door"; people leave you alone if they know it'll come back at them x10, as I'm known to do.

    e) from the wf I heard that one sales trainer will report unauthorized chargeback people to collection agencies, which is worth investigating....seems like an effective deterrent, if would-be chargebackers or serial refunders know they'll be reported to a collection agency (which wrecks their credit rating); especially for products past (or aren't offered with) guarantee periods

    f) collectively anyone who files and wins civil cases or other things that are documented, would be good to have a website where scanned-in items (with names/case docket numbers blurred for privacy) are shown to would-be chargeback people to let them know what'll happen to them. Fact: back in the days of pirates, in Jamaica etc, the local governor would have pirates' bodies hung on display in the bay, as a warning to other would-be pirates, and this was effective (when followed up w/well trained harbor gunners)... a digital equivalent to deter unfair/ripoff customers would be good to collectively work on. For example I report DVD pirates to the police in whatever town or country (need to report to US embassy in countries like Malaysia); I trace them to using various IP address tracing/whois lookups, I should have scanned-in police reports on my site as part of the anti-piracy educational campaign, with the permission of the authorities, to help deter crime.

    I wish everyone would be good, honest ethical people, but like Michel said in this recession it seems to bring out the 'low points' of character, or lack therof, in individuals; and we need to collectively band together to protect ourselves. Great dialogue!

    -k
  • Hey Michel,

    I agree 100000000% there are quite a few customers who are scammers. I don't get why us merchants who are legitimately providing good services and products get all the heat. It really ticks me off that customers come to me... get and use and PROFIT from my services... then turn around and ask for refunds and do charge backs because they are hurting for money.

    Where is the integrity? Where is the honor and respect?

    You are so right... its not even about winning the dispute... its about the time and energy we have to take away from helping other people.

    I will never understand why these people waste their time and ours and buy our stuff in the first place... that mentality is beyond my realm of thinking.

    thanks for the great post :o) always enjoyed your work.

    Marcus

    PS: this was especially painful when i ran an seo company... got people rankings that they wanted... then they did a charge back cause their site didn't convert.
  • Well done Michel, it's the longest article I have ever read
  • @David Burch -

    Actually, we DO have a "Wall Of Shame" for exactly this purpose. Feel free to post (with proper facts and documentation - leave emotion out please) at http://ablakeforum.com and enjoy!
  • A number of businesses use a no-chargeback clause in their agreements. I use one. Of course, you would want to get legal advice about anything in your contract and I'm sure not giving advice. But I was wondering how many of you do use a no-chargeback clause or penalty clause of some sort to discourage this sort of activity.

    Here is a clause that one company uses:

    "In the event that a chargeback is placed on a purchase, we reserve the right to report the incident for inclusion in a chargeback abuser database. The information reported will include name, email address, order date, order amount, IP address, full address, and phone number. Chargeback abusers wishing to be removed from the database shall make the payment for the amount of the chargeback + $50 for processing fees by cashier's check or money order."

    I might add that the only time I had a chargeback was one of the few times I failed to use a contract. So I totally blame myself. I also failed to pick up on the red flags. For example, the client insisted on paying by credit card and he only wanted to deal on the phone --- nothing in writing. As a California resident, this played in to their laws well for him.

    I later found out he was a serial chargeback scammer and I was yet one of his many victims.
  • I forgot to provide an additional example of a no-chargeback clause in my previous post. So here it is.

    Since there is a clear and explicit refund policy, Comersus does not accept any type of chargeback or chargeback threat. In case of receiving a chargeback threat the same will be reported to chargeback abuser databases, regardless of the fact that the chargeback may be actually made later on.

    "In the event that a chargeback is placed on a purchase, Comersus reserves the right to report the incident for inclusion in a chargeback abuser database. The information reported will include name, email address, order date, order amount, IP address, full address, and phone number. Chargeback abusers wishing to be removed from the database shall make the payment for the amount of the chargeback + $50 for processing fees by Wire Transfer."
  • David
    But I was wondering how many of you do use a no-chargeback clause or penalty clause of some sort to discourage this sort of activity.


    Various domain providers have that kind of clause tailored to their business also. Something like this:

    "In the event of a charge back by a credit card company (or similar action by another payment provider allowed by us) in connection with your payment of fees for any Service(s), you agree that we may suspend access to any and all accounts you have with us and/or your Primary Service Provider and that all rights to and interest in and use of any domain name registration(s) services, website hosting, and/or email services, including all data hosted on our systems shall be assumed by us in satisfaction of any indebtedness by you to us. We will reinstate your rights to and control over these Services solely at our discretion, and subject to our receipt of the unpaid fee(s) and our reinstatement fee, currently set at $200 (US Dollars)."

    And some people have the gall to complain of being "forced to pay" $200 or so after admitting they did a chargeback first rather than talk to their provider about it.

    I for one intend to have that kind of clause, although I'll need to run it through my lawyer to be sure.
  • Michel,

    A few days passed since you wrote this post, but a client of mine just shared with me a short video today that I thought was a perfect addition to your message.

    I hope it's OK to share it here
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2a8TRSgzZY

    Smiles,

    Adam
  • Mike,

    A very well argued post, mostly from the sellers point of view. Let us understand that we are buyers too, at some point of time or other. Just recently, I had purchased, on your recommendation, the Copywriting CrashCourse by John Angelache for $47. The purchase decision was primarily based on the promises and the scope of the course as mentioned in the 'long sales letter'. I purchased the same using my credit card. I downloaded the contents and started reading it. When the read the e-book fully, I saw that John had taken a sample sales letter and tweaked it for a couple of related products and services. And that was it!!!

    I mulled over the contents in the context of my requirements and the claims made in the sales letter in John' site and with a heavy heart asked John for a refund. He directed me to Clickbank and after a few days, the refund was made. (I have to confirm with my credit card company on that)

    I fully get your point that seeking refunds or asking for a chargeback with an intention to cheat the vendor is harmful. I sell software products in India and recently launched a new product with a 30 day money back guarantee. We never received even one request for refund because most ( I repeat most) people are fair and do not like to take advantage of this offer to have the cake and eat it too!!!

    Vendors should take the necessary precautions to protect themselves and I really liked your idea of credit reference checks. At the same time, they should realize that they run the risk of charge back or refund if they under deliver.

    cheers
  • Michel, it's good that you brought that up. Now, I'm a fair guy, if someone wants a refund I just give it to them, but some of the reasons I've gotten for a refund are outrageous. I had a customer that said "he didn't mean to order, he have alzheimers and clicked the order button and didn't know what he was ordering" I mean wow, but this does happen and once they are refunded, I delete them from my campaigns too, because they'll do it again later...

    Terrance Charles
    http://www.terrancecharles.com
  • Hi Michael.

    This is the most interesting post I have read in a VERY long time. Thank you.

    There are always two sides (at least 2) to every story! I had an incident recently where the merchant concluded I was unfairly asking for a refund. I, on the other hand, felt totally ripped off and taken advantage of. I would truly appreciate people's opinions on this matter.

    First, let me say I am in no way a "serial refunder" type of customer or even a customer who is hard to get along with. I have never asked for a single refund, even a few times when I felt like the product truly did suck. However, I can guarantee that the merchant in this incident absolutely came to those conclusions (unfairly in my opinion). So many disagreements boil down to poor communication and false assumptions and I do think both of those things are at issue here.

    Here is what happened.

    I hired a newly formed company to do some very expensive and somewhat complex marketing work for me. SEO, link building, social networking, etc. Traffic generation in short. I REALLY trusted these folks and I was very excited to have them working for me, convinced that their expertise and help would get my struggling business off the ground. All I was supposed to do was provide content. They promised to do EVERYTHING else.

    After a month and a half of "service" (and $4,500) I realized absolutely NOTHING had actually been done. Not one bloody thing. I wrote a long and polite complaint letter. They responded beautifully. Called me on the phone. Apologized. Expressed shock and horror that nothing had been done. Started doing what they had been promised. I forgave them and gave them the benefit of the doubt. "Well, they just formed this particular branch of the company....they are still getting organized...it's ok," type of thinking. In hind sight, I should have fired them right then and there....but I did not. My bad. I have a habit of being too forgiving, too trusting and too nice.

    Anyway....they adjusted my bill and did not charge me for the next month and a half. I thought things were going well. I continued supplying content and I THOUGHT they were marketing it.

    After three months of this, I ran out of money. I told them IMMEDIATELY I was out of money and thanks but I needed to suspend the service. I could have kept my mouth shut and let them do another months worth of work but I knew that would be grossly unfair to them.

    Problem was, my traffic hadn't risen very much. At the time, I attributed it to the fact that this kind of marketing takes a while to show results. Maybe my keyword research was bad. Maybe my niche was too big. I was not upset with them.

    Several months passed and I had some money. I hired them back. We worked together for 2 more months. My traffic stayed in the toilet. Why is this I asked? Your content is bad, they answered. No it isn't I shot back.

    Your niche is too big they said. You ran us ragged doing mundane web mastering work so we never had time to do link building for you they said. I said well webmastering and posting content was included in your service! I said.

    I was devastated but accepted it. I started doing the link building work myself. Now, I admit that I had never fully learned everything they were supposed to be doing, that's one reason I hired them. I did not feel like I had time to learn everything and implement it too so I hired them. (They taught link building as well as actually performed it)

    I know you should never hire someone to do something for you if you do not know precisely what it is they are doing, but I did. My bad.

    Once I REALLY got in and looked, I could tell they had not really done what they were supposed to. They were supposed to syndicate my articles. I had over 275 articles and they had syndicated 2. They were supposed to make accounts for me at digg, reddit, etc. I had no account at most of these places. If I did have an account, it was empty and the profile was only 5% completed.

    I contacted another link building expert and paid him $175 to spend 2 hours on the phone with me so I could verify my suspicions. I still did not trust my knowledge. He showed me how to check every link back to my site. I spent hours going over the 4,000+ links and determined that they had not done squat. virtually everyone of those 4,000 were the result of something I had done.

    I also found another student of this groups and had her examine my website. She confirmed I had been ripped off. I did NOT want to bring false accusations. I worked as a journalist for years and the rule is you have to have two sources on any info.

    Anyway, I contacted them. Asked for a full refund. (By that time is was $12,500) They told me
    they had done a great job on my site and the problem was all MY fault. Bad content, etc. etc. Of course they did not bother to remember at this point that on some webinars they had used my site as an example of GOOD content, but whatever.

    I threatened them with a video exposing them as frauds. They shot back that they would sue me for libel. They told me I was an idiot and still did not understand what wonderful things they had done for me. They insisted they had done a fantastic job and the problems were all due to MY failures. They said they had actually gone above and beyond because they had worked for me for 2 months for FREE, meaning the time at the beginning when they adjusted my bill. I said you didn't work for me for free, you adjusted my bill because nothing had been done. You DELAYED the progress of my website, you did not do anything generous by those 2 months of "free" work.

    They told me to go to hell basically. They wondered why I had waited so long to ask for a refund. I explained that I had just really figured out that the problem was they had NEVER DONE WHAT THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO DO. They told me I was too big of an idiot to realize what a stellar job they had done. I said, "how can you say that? You only syndicated 2 of my articles." Well, they answered that article syndication was not their job. I checked the contract and it was not specifically listed but they had promised it verbally and I had even paid $150 (at their suggestion) to set up an account with an article syndication service to make it easier for them.

    I backed off on doing the video saying they were frauds because i really have no stomach for a public wee-wee match and I never should have threatened it. I actually apologized to them for doing so. They began ignoring me. They told me I was a hard-to-get-along with idiot and making demands that were out of line.

    Now, I realized that I should have kept a better watch on them during all this. I should have realized sooner that they were not fulfilling their obligations. I take full responsibility for all that. But at the same time, it all boiled down to me trusting them. When I first signed on, the guy told me that I should not even think about doing my own link building that I should concentrate on content creation. He assured me that outsourcing the link building to him was the way to go. Of course this completely contradicts what he said at the end of all this mess was that I had "squandered the opportunity" to learn link building from them and do it all myself.

    Anyway....

    Let me add that this fellow and his group are well respected marketers. Friends of yours Michael. You spoke at their conference.

    I felt like I deserved a full refund because if they had done their jobs, my site would be in a much better position than it is today. I have endured incredible hardship because of the stagnation of this website. I do not blame them for my financial hardship per se, but I do blame them for not delivering on their promises, which has caused my income to remain in the toilet.

    So there you have it. A situation where in the minds of the merchant, I am a problem client and they would probably put my name on the type of list suggested in this article. In fact, extortion is the exact word they used to describe what they said I was doing to them by asking for a refund.

    I fully believe they indeed think I am just a whinny, lazy wench, but I assure you, that is NOT the case. I think this guy is so arrogant it clouds his judgement.

    Thanks for listening! Now back to work!

    Lorraine Grula
  • Did all the comments get turned off or am I just not finding them?
    Thanks
    Lorraine
  • Doctors can consult databases of known malpractice filers, insurance companies can check to see if you have been dropped by other insurers and even banks check to see if you have had issues with other banks (even in other states) before they will open a new account.

    What's the difference here? I generally lean to the side that says it's better to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission.
  • I posted as a Tweet but it doesn't seem to get picked up here on teh blog.
  • That's because blog posts are moderated.
  • Thanks for the response. Yeah, I figured that out when I posted the 2nd reply.
  • Jeff
    Michel,

    You're right on the money. People use chargebacks as a tool to get around refund policies - and they don't realize the damage it can do and the time it can take to deal with. (Of course, they don't care, I'm sure.) I've often told credit card and bank reps that they should prosecute for fraud when people lie on their chargeback claims that they "didn't buy something" or "wasn't what they ordered". It is fraud, in my opinion. And not inexpensive fraud for the credit card companies and for individual corporations like mine.

    Great post! (Oh yeah... and great link to Larry's "A Deal's a Deal" audio. I want to send that audio to EVERYONE who charges back!)

    Thanks, Michel!

    Best,
    Jeff
blog comments powered by Disqus
Confessions Of A Website Copywriter

Confessions Of A Website Copywriter

New! Possibly the Internet's best copywriting ebook on how to write proven sales copy for the Internet, from writing and web design, to testing. Highly recommended! Click for more »