Are You Committing These Sins?

Sylvie, kudos to you and Michel for putting out a manifesto of the nature you did.

It's time.

:)

I did one a few years back, titled "Dr.Mani & Mr.Snyde" - you can download it from http://EzineMarketingCenter.com/drmani-mrsnyde.pdf

I've already emailed my list about the manifesto.

All success
Dr.Mani

Internet Marketing Sins report is on the face fact.

I read most of the book last night and she doesn't hold anything back. I was a bit surprised by how much she said. I have been thinking about this a lot lately and some of the things that Sylvie pointed out were reasons I was thinking of leaving this niche to other people, because I am not at all comfortable with some of the tactics being used in the niche.

It was very refreshing to read her ebook and I am very happy you two are doing this.

Hey, Sylvie and Michael! Great job! It's time someone put it ALL into words and out there for public consumption and discussion. I'm pissed, too. Every time someone is tricked or dealt with under-handedly, we ALL pay with their skepticism rising.

I'll be posting my comments about this report on my blog later today at: http://www.ewealthreport.com.

And -- if you want to participate in a broader discussion of outright illegal and immoral marketing activities, I would love to see your comments to open up the discussion at: http://www.uglyfacts.com.

Have just got it in my mail..Read the first 5 pages...I still have around 124 pages to go...But it is an interesting read...Thank you for putting it together.

Whao!!!

You had to thread where Angels could not thread.

That was a report has been long due for a very long time.

Rosa Parks refused to go the back of the bus. Now Sylvie Fortin is leading the rest of the world in Holistic Marketing.

Fantastic job.

Oritseyemi E Madamedon

A long overdue effort to try to promote best practices and to enlighten marketers to the effects of their own activities.

But please, quote Gandhi, not Ghandi! You know, or should know better.

The 10 Commandments and now the 15 sins. :) It's looking good. A much needed report at the moment for the industry.

Outstanding Sylvia........

I myself am rather new to the internet marketing / copywriting arena, but.... having been familiar with and directly exposed to the internet and the various marketing tactics used,( both good and dispicable) since it's inception in the mid to late 80's, I can say that it is HIGH TIME these tactics of marketers who consistantly perform them are called out and brought into the light for public scrutiny and admonishment before their peers.

As I can see it, you will not have anything to lose, and if you do, they were clients you would not want to conduct business with in the first place.

Any one who takes offense ( I'm not referring to those who have made honest mistakes along the way, such as, I'm sure I have!) to these issues you bring to light is someone who does not have the moral integrity of a rat and therefore, in my oppinion, should do us all a favor and exit the business altogether.....POST HASTE!!

I appreciate both you and Michael for your contributions,insights,lessons and guidance regarding this big ol world of copywriting and marketing........

Keep up the good work!

I just spent an hour reading the report, and got to say it was actually worth the time. Your wive has got some funny personality!

But I'm glad shes finally calling everyone out on all the BS going on lately. I'll admit I'm guilty of a few of the things on the list and I already went to my website to fix what I could.

Keep on ranting, the truth should be heard! I will wait for the upcoming chapters of this report.

Like Sylvia said... STOP THINKING OF OUR CUSTOMERS LIKE THEY ARE FLOATING BRAINLESS WALLETS!!

Rich Boy
http://www.TheRichBoy.com

First of all, I am shocked and appalled at the tactics you mentioned. A company that can pay you 200K for your service is doing well enough that they don't have to resort to such unethical means to make money. In fact, when it catches up to them, they will find that the ethical road would have done them far better in the long run.

So far as the strong language, it is the appropriate venue for such. As copywriters, we often yearn to be able to lay it on the line and be expressive, but having a fiduciary duty to do what's best for our clients naturally erects boundaries that would be violated by same.

Congratulations on saying what needs to be said, and for finding the appropriate forum to do so!

Seems my wife's report has created quite a stir on the Internet. Well, we expected that. ;)

We got fan mail and, of course, hate mail. If you want to see some of them (any identifying information has been removed to protect people's privacy), check it out:

http://www.internetmarketingsins.com/feedback.htm

Some people say my wife released this report as a disguised sales pitch of some kind. Nonsense. In fact, my wife replied to this concern/question on my forum:

http://twurl.nl/u80m34

My wife is about halfway done on the second installment covering five more sins, and this done is going to be a doozie!

So if you haven't joined the notification list to not only download part #1, but also be notified when parts #2 and #3 are made available, go do it now:

http://www.internetmarketingsins.com/

We got fan mail and, of course, hate mail.

I'm not even halfway done reading the manifesto, and I'm fascinated with it. I'm also rather mystified at some of the hate mail posted in your feedback, but that's how some people feel about it.

Hmmm, maybe you should enlarge your hate mailbox? You might get a message ala Chicken Little's Dad, "Your Hate Mail Is Full." :)

I love this stuff. The report is gold. Marketers who dare to be this transparent will gain a tremendous amount of trust with their following.

Excellent Stuff

The report is excellent and sheds light on a lot of things that have needed to be said for a long time.

My concern, however, is with the sales letter. Here are some comments that particularly stuck in my mind:

"While the hairs on the back or our necks would rise at the sight of what some of these marketers do (and they would certainly do the same for most people), we had to bite our tongues, zip our mouths shut and continue kowtowing to their demands."

"Yes, we felt we had no choice but to do what our clients asked us to do."

"Fortunately, since then we’ve done very well for ourselves."

"Why this sudden change of heart?"

What I took away from the story is that it is okay to look the other way IF you need the money. Once you become financially comfortable, you can allow your moral compass to surface.

Goodness gracious, you are basically saying the end justifies the means. I do NOT agree and feel that attitude is what fuels the deception taking place online.

We've had major financial upheavals in our family as well. The difference is that I never, ever considered doing anything that would cause us to "bite our tongues, zip our mouths shut and continue kowtowing".

People do have a choice. You had a choice.

Again, the report is excellent. But the copy simply told me to implement the information in the report once I was financially well-off from ignoring the information in the report and do whatever was necessary to put money in my pocket.

@Sue Jenkins - The copy may not have been written as good as it should, then. Because that's not what I meant, and I'm sure YOU know that.

Essentially, what I was referring to is taking on clients, especially when we were new to Internet marketing, where we were naive, knew little, and had to do what we were commissioned to do as service providers.

Some things were entirely legal and even ethical, but they were questionable (they were not necessarily unethical or illegal of course, which we would never do, but they became questionable as we learned more and more about Internet marketing).

So we had to learn.

Yes, we did sin. And we openly admit it. But to be clear, I didn't say "we had no choice." I said, "we felt we had no choice." Because looking back, with what we now know, we certainly should have refused these clients if we knew what we were getting into.

But hindsight is always 20/20, isn't it?

A choice is only a choice when you understand ALL the options. We didn't. The point is, I didn't say this to justify what we did. I said it to explain that we took on the clients at a time when we had little knowledge about Internet marketing and online business in general.

Back then, we were service providers only, not Internet marketers. So we had a very limited perspective. Plus, we were limited in what we knew, not only of Internet marketing itself, but also of our clients businesses' and their business models. The tasks we were hired to do were just very small parts of a bigger picture, which we couldn't see.

Once we learned more and more, and became successful because we started running businesses ourselves as Internet marketers (not just service providers with limited knowledge), we started refusing and even firing clients outright.

We did, and Sylvie has indicated this in her report.

And we hope this is what this report will do, too. That is gets people to question, especially those who are new and contemplating questionable tactics themselves.

Sylvie is not targeting the hardcore veteran marketers with this report. She's mostly targeting the newbie who's thinking about emulating them -- and forcing them to think twice before doing something they may not be completely aware of.

She's given them a choice. A choice we didn't have.

But in no way am I saying you should only follow this report when you are successful. I appreciate your comment because it is a valid point. You misread... or I mispoke. But, if too many people perceive it the same way you did, I may have to rewrite it then.

@Sue Jenkins - Sue, I'd like to be perfectly clear about this issue, because it is an important one.

Michel is a copywriter. As such, he was often commissioned to write copy for clients who were using what he thought might be questionable tactics in their marketing efforts. They said "do this on my salesletter", and that was what he was hired to do, which was to write the salesletter the way they wanted it written.

My company was often hired to do things like: PPC ad campaigns, article writing, customer support, etc for clients who were using questionable tactics. They said "do this" and our freelancers did their jobs.

We weren't hired to DO questionable things. We were hired to do other work for clients who happened to be doing questionable things.

But at the time, we did not know enough about it to KNOW we were right. We assumed, like their own customers, that these things were the way it was done.

In other words, when the expert spoke, we didn't argue.

That's a far cry from consciously doing bad things.

But at no time were either Michel or myself ever involved in doing anything ILLEGAL. There's a huge difference!

And we were asked, many times, to do illegal things. Our first response was to inform the customer that this wasn't legal and we wouldn't do it for them. If the customer insisted, we kicked them out of the pool.

And I'd like to also point out something else.

In the report, I make it clear that most of the marketers who do these things are not doing it out of spite or malice. They are doing it because that's the way they've been taught.

They are doing it because they've seen others do it and since they seem to be successful doing it, they figure it is worth a shot.

This report argues that these tactics may work briefly, as the numbers show, but in the long run it is severely damaging to a serious online business.

So hopefully this will help clear up any mis-perceptions about what we meant. We wanted people to realize that we aren't perfect, and that there was a time when we, like them, didn't dare question the authority of the day.

@Sue Jenkins - Sue, your point is important, because it's all about perception -- the very thing we're talking about in this report.

Because, while some tactics are indeed legal and ethical, they may be questionable. And the perception they create is what can harm us all.

So I've decided to reword that section in the "salesletter" to better explain, and avoid any misperceptions.

(And thanks to @Dr.Mani, too, who made the same point to me by email.)

We appreciate you all.

Michael & Silvie,

Thanks for taking time to respond to my concerns.

I never felt that you did anything illegal, but it did come across that you were willing to do things that were unethical or, at a minimum, caused uneasy feelings.

Am glad you are clarifying this fact because you didn't know any better, rather than a conscious decision to go along with it. Statements like "While the hairs on the back or our necks would rise at the sight of what some of these marketers do (and they would certainly do the same for most people), we had to bite our tongues, zip our mouths shut and continue kowtowing to their demands." made it seem that you did recognize it wasn't right...otherwise the hairs on your head would be smooth!

Perhaps this was after you had finished some of these assignments and now knew more than when you started out. If that was your intent, it did not come across that way in the original letter (at least to me), so I am glad you are clarifying it.

I've been in in the coaching business since 1990 and many people have fallen for the "follow the leader" syndrome. Sometimes you just don't know enough to know what you don't know! That is indeed different from making a conscious decision to look the other way.

I have a motto that has served me well and I use often with clients:

"Just because you can, doesn't mean you should."

Thanks again for taking the time to reply to my concerns.

Sue

@Sue Jenkins - Thanks, Sue.

I think it was a poor explanation, on my part, because I may have been trying to justify it to my own self, in my mind -- perhaps unconsciously -- since, based on what I now know and the limited knowledge I had back then, I realized the mistakes I made and feel uncomfortable looking back.

But that's precisely why we came out with this report, because many newbies don't know any better, too. And too many of them simply, as you said, "follow the leader."

It was only after a period of time, especially after starting and running our own businesses, that we realized the devastating (and sometimes indirect) effects such underhanded tactics cause.

Again, thank you for understanding.

Hi Sylvie and Michel

Anyone who gets an insiders view of this business knows that what you say is true.

However,I have a few questions:

1.Scarcity-often used by copywriters as a tool of manipulation.Perhaps one of the worst because of the countless times it has been misused.Are you no longer going to use scarcity in the copy you make?

2.We all know that top marketers are in a powerful position. What is your take on top marketers taking the ideas of smaller marketers and releasing them to their massive lists as an original piece of work. There are many examples of this going on (some even right now)

Yes, changes will be made to the original idea and therefore cannot be considered plagiarism- but it still seems horribly unethical.

3.Going forward-what do you propose to stop these things from happening?

Barry Plaskow
http://www.BarryPlaskow.com
http://www.ContentDeskBonus.com
http://www.InternetBusinessFromScratch.com

@Barry Plaskow - Hey Barry. Great questions!

1. In the report, I cover the three ways to do scarcity. Currently, we see far too much of both "BS Scarcity" and even "Real Scarcity". I suggest using Authentic Scarcity techniques instead of either of the above.

2. This is what I call "Me Too" Marketers, which I'm covering in Part 2 of the report (coming soon).

3. Not sure if you've read the report? Because in it, for every sin, there is an actionable solution that works far better than the sinful method. :) It is my hope that most, if not all, marketers will at least try the alternative and see how much better it works for their business.

In the end, the only way change will occur is if the bad marketing tactics no longer result in high sales. Which means that we, as consumers of IM Products, must stop supporting bad marketing tactics!

Hope that helps

Sylvie