Are All Business People Dishonest?

SpineSeems I’m ranting a lot these days, and a little more opinionated than the norm. Perhaps it’s my broken back, which is killing me, that’s making me more sensitive or irritable. I don’t know.

But something someone recently said in my copywriters forum irritated me. And it’s not what this person said specifically, but the mindset behind it that’s bothering me.

In a thread about an Internet marketer who was recently arrested (yes, it had something to do with forced continuity, but it had more to do with refusing refunds and avoiding customers than it had to do with forced continuity itself), one member said:

There is NO such thing as an honest business man. (…) Ask any accountant.”

Now, I have no clue as to why this person said this. And my opinion here is not about this person specifically. Again, it’s about the thinking process that some people have when they make such assertions.

Personally, I believe this view of business people is skewed, off, and wrong. It’s destructive, too.

In fact, copywriter Marcia Yudkin said it best. In her reply, she said this gem: “I feel sorry for you. That is a terrible philosophy to hold, hurtful to you and hurtful to the honest people who deal with you.”

Well said.

I know what the original commentator was trying to say, but I wouldn’t have said “dishonest.” I believe the word choice is wrong because of the implication. Are all business people really dishonest?

Saying it that way can be easily misconstrued. And it can also be easily misinterpreted, too.

That’s the power of words. That’s what makes us copywriters, too.

We choose our words carefully. The words we use can be incredibly powerful — both good and bad.

If “dishonest” is referring to communications, I’ll be the first to admit that we do exaggerate from time to time. We try to put our product in its best possible light. We focus more on the benefits than we do on the downfalls.

But you know, that’s not reserved to business people only.

We do it when we try to explain a movie we love to our friends. Or when we bolster our ego talking about a great deal we got at the local store. Or when we court a potential life partner.

It’s human nature.

Words have emotional impact. Even with the most logical, analytical people out there. Our choice of words can make or break the sale, whether the product is good or not. Just as words can make or break relationships, court cases, even wars.

For example, real estate agents will say they sell “homes,” not houses. Dentists will say they create beautiful “smiles,” not “teeth.” We tell stories to communicate a product’s purpose or brand. We use words that paint vivid mental pictures.

(I recommend Seth Godin’s book, “All Marketers Are Liars.” By the way, Seth is referring to the power of telling stories in marketing.)

But to say all business people are dishonest, and even implying that one should ask any accountant, is a terribly skewed vision of the world. And I’m speaking generally, not just about business itself.

Business people do try to make maximum profit with every transaction, and they will try to do it at the least amount of expense.

That’s business.

The difference is, the honest ones will do so at the service of others, while the dishonest ones will do so at the expense of others.

Making a profit can be seen by a lot of people as “dishonest.” I’m a capitalist through and through, and I believe in win-win. I don’t see anything wrong with mutually beneficial transactions, which is what business is and should be, in my opinion.

We sell products and services that benefit our customers. But just as much as we are responsible not to mislead, lie, or deceive, customers are just as responsible for their own lives, their own decisions, and their own actions.

What I have a problem with is, some people do see any kind of marketing, or any kind of selling, as dishonest.

And for some reason, that bothers me.

For example, in the same vein as “all business people are dishonest,” some have said, in the recent forced continuity debate, that all marketing is unethical.

They say that a product should sell by itself based on its own merit. And that marketing and selling (and to that I would add copywriting) exist because it’s the only way to sell a poor product that can’t sell itself.

Oh, really?

If so, then we must be all psychics, because we should know about all the good products in the world. We should rely only on word-of-mouth — we all have friends who will tell us what we need to know, right?

And we should all buy everything that “is good” (even though “good” is subjective and personal) solely because they alone merit our attention, our patronage, and our money.

Forget about life getting in the way.

Forget about competition.

Forget about our innate fear of loss.

Forget about the state of the economy.

Forget about the need for marketing to help better decide how we spend our money.

And forget our natural proclivities to want to be secure, to procrastinate, to avoid making bad decisions, and to save our money to buy only what we need — not what we want. (Goodness forbid we buy what we want, not what we need!)

Obviously, that’s wrong. At least to me, it is.

My opinion?

(Here comes the rant.)

In my experience, people who think all marketing is unethical or that all business people are dishonest are usually people who feel everything should be free.

Now, I’m not trying to start a political debate regarding capitalism versus socialism. I’m talking about people who have a sense of entitlement, especially those who whine and complain all the time.

People who bitch about businesses exploiting them are just as much trying to exploit businesses themselves by always trying to find, or haggling for, a good deal.

This is called “projection.” (I’ll come back to this in a moment.)

People who feel that they deserve great products and great customer service (which is a given and expected) but for the least amount of money possible.

People who feel they should get the most by working (or paying) the least.

These people who have a sense of entitlement blame others all the time, never take responsibility for their own circumstances, victimize themselves constantly, and whine all the time about how unfair the world is.

To them, not only are all business people dishonest and all marketing unethical, but also everything costs too much. They automatically assume that all marketing is a scam, and that they, in turn, will do their darnedest best to scam businesses, too.

They will suck them for freebies. They will never buy anything. They let coupons and deals dictate their lives. And they will be the first ones to pounce on any mistake a marketer makes — such as a grocery store accidentally pricing an item too low.

They’re the ones who think, “if it’s that good, then it should be cheap… Or free.”

They try to get the most by paying the least (now tell me, how different is that from the business owner who tries to make the most profit with the least expense?).

People who make such assertions should look in the mirror first.

In a recent blog post, one of my favorite authors and speakers, Larry Winget, talked about banning one of his blog commentators who was toxic, always negative, and went out of his way to badmouth Larry.

This person was so incensed, even to the point of going on Amazon and giving every book Larry wrote a bad review.

In that blog post, I commented that, if only the bad commentators would put as much work into, well, working on their own success, I betcha they wouldn’t find the time to bitch.

They would be too busy being successful.

Larry once noted that the hardest thing one can and will ever do in their lives is to look at themselves in the mirror and say, “It’s all my fault.”

These “bad commentators” aren’t looking in the mirror as they should be. And I would venture to say that people who don’t look in the mirror expect everything else to be one. (That’s what I mean by “projection.”)

Remember the old Einstein saying that, when your only tool is hammer you see every problem as a nail? It’s the same idea, here.

That is, when these faultfinders blame others, they are projecting their own self-loathing onto others.

Similarly, what I found is that those who whine and complain are usually the ones who aren’t happy with themselves, and feel the need to blame others.

And they put a lot of work, effort, and even money into dragging other people down, or into whining about how bad things are (e.g., how broke and tired they are, or how scammed they’ve been).

Why don’t they spend all that energy and money on getting ahead instead? Or dare I say it, into starting a business, and — here’s a novel concept — marketing and selling themselves?

Go figure.

In Larry’s program, “Success is Your Own (Damn) Fault,” he quotes the Sanborn Maxim, which goes: “The customers who are willing to pay you the least will always demand the most.”

While that might be true in terms of money, I think it’s the same with everything else.

For example, “The people who are willing to pay you the least respect will always demand the most.” (And I believe they’re the ones who deserve it the least, too.)

I agree that there are some business people out there who are dishonest. Thinking that all of them are honest is just as skewed as the converse.

But that kind of thinking can be a lot more hurtful and damaging than the simple comment “there is no such thing as an honest business person.” Damaging to oneself as it is to others.

In conclusion, let me quote something Michelle MacPherson said, a marketer I admire a lot, which sums it all up beautifully:

If you don’t take responsibility for your own actions in life and instead hand that responsibility (in the form of blame) to someone else, you have no power (you’ve effectively given that power to someone else, since it’s ‘not your fault’). If you have no power, you’ll never have success — you’ll just spend your days blaming others for your lack thereof.”

Thanks for listening.

P.S.: What do you think of the new blog design? Just a larger font, more whitespace, and less “busyness.” It’s based on your feedback, which I appreciate immensely.

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  • Yup. That's an unsuccessful mindset for sure. It's insane how common it is. People think you're greedy if you're not giving stuff away... hmm, maybe they're greedy for wanting everything for free.
  • This really brings up some interesting points of view. Bravo, my love, for bringing up a potentially difficult subject!

    People often go around talking about this scam or the other, but always in reference to businesses that are scamming them. It is rare for anyone to talk about how consumers are just as guilty of scamming businesses. It just doesn't seem to enter into people's minds as a possibility.

    And yet it is all too often a very real problem, and one that costs hardworking business people a LOT of money, time, energy and resources.

    Scam #1: Give me your product for free because I have no money. Here;s my sob story, blah blah blah

    This is a VERY common request, and one which is particularly reprehensible. I've been in business for more years than I care to admit, and I have personally heard this request in a variety of forms hundreds of times every year.

    And I have fallen for it a few times too many, too. 99% of the time, the person who fed me a sob story and got my product for free (which cost ME money) were the worst pains to deal with, demanded the most of my time, failed to appreciate what they were given, or just plain never used the product.

    Scam #2: Let me buy your product about X topic and then harass you for tons of free advice about Y topic, and if you don't give me what I demand, I will bitch and gripe about you to all my friends. I will tell everyone that you suck and you will end up refunding me to get rid of me.

    This is a major problem for any marketer who sells any kind of information product. It is a customer support nightmare, and the only way to squelch it is to consistently reply with "That's a great question! My product doesn't currently cover that because it is outside the scope of what I teach. But here's a great product that will answer that for you (insert affiliate link)"

    Scam #3: How dare you charge me money for X when information/software/content/ebooks/reports should be free and if you don't give it to me for free, then I am going to tell everyone what a jerk you are! In fact, how dare you try and sell me anything at all! You can't be nice/decent/friendly/human if you aren't willing to give away all the knowledge you earned over the years.

    I just have one thing to say about this one...

    Folks, every decent business person I have ever met has been incredibly generous with their time and knowledge...by choice! Not because it was demanded of them, but because they are generous spirited and wanted to share freely. My husband is one of them, and it is one of the many reasons I married him.

    But when someone starts demanding more, more, more, more, more, it just makes the formerly generous person want to close up shop and focus on his or her own needs. It has the exact opposite effect than was intended.

    If you give someone the chance to give from the heart, they will often surprise you with their generosity. If you make whiny demands, you will find that you will always believe the worst of people and they will most assuredly shut you out.

    If you find yourself consistently angry at successful marketers, you may want to ask yourself if maybe it's YOU that's the real problem. Hmmm.
  • Hi Michel,

    Great post. You really nailed it.

    Anytime words like "All" are used in a sentence as in....All business people are dishonest...of course, is hyperbole. There are many honest business people. Business reflects life. If you're dishonest in the rest of your life, you'll be dishonest in business too.

    More important is the mindset and foundation of the entrepreneur who realizes that the more VALUE he/she delivers to the marketplace with the proper attitude, the more profits will result.

    Equally important is the fact that until people wake up to the fact that they are responsible for the results in their lives, and stop blaming everyone else for their circumstances, they are DOOMED!

    Thanks again for the great post.

    All the best,

    Jeff
  • Tom Jones
    Hi Michel,

    It's one heck of sweeping statement to claim that all business people are dishonest.

    The saying "let he[she] who is without sin, cast the first stone" comes to mind.

    P.S. love the new blog layout :)
  • Ignore them.

    I've heard this many times, I've been self employed most of my life.

    People are jealous and resentment of anyone who makes it.

    There are crooks who are broke and there are crooks who are rich (I think most are broke). There's more people stealing in low income areas.

    I have many friends who do very well and are really nice, giving people, as a matter of fact, they get taken advantage of a lot.

    Plus the media only talks about the CEOs who rip people off, not the good ones who provide and help people.

    And when you have something (from hard work), many people think you're suppose to give it away to them.

    There are a lot of losers looking for free handouts. Many people steal from work, either merchandise or time. They think the company owes them something.

    What ever happened to old fashion, honest, hard work??

    Those who are honest and work hard take a beating from the slackers.

    OK... Rant over.

    Thanks,
    Phil Spinelli
  • Oh one more thing.

    Would you ever do business with a dishonest person/business.

    Maybe once, never twice.

    Unless you're the government or a big utility company, you just can't afford to be dishonest.

    thanks.
  • Billy
    Excellent post, Michel. You know, many years ago, I was one of those people who thought marketing was inherently evil. I admit it: I saw every slogan as a lie, and I assumed that NOTHING was as advertised. (I would later discover that that sort of attitude was a reason I had underachieved for so long, and I think you did a great job in pointing that out.)

    And then I created some of my own products, and yeah, while I position them in the most positive light possible, I also know that I have created a lot of value and have helped thousands of people. I've got the letters in the file to prove it, people THANKING me for providing such a great service.

    That feels good. And now I see businesspeople all over the place over-delivering and actually CARING about their customers.

    Do I make a profit? Yes, and I won't apologize for that (especially given the insane, no-deadline, no-reason-needed guarantee I offer.) Every time someone emails me to scold me for "profiting on the pain of others," I want to ask them, "Gee, do you feel the same way about your doctor or dentist? How about the guy who fixes your car? Should they do all those things for free?"

    Thanks for the great essay, and a big thumbs-up to the new blog design!
  • The statement "There is NO such thing as an honest business man. (...) Ask any accountant."

    is just about as ignorant as

    "There is NO such thing as an honest employee. Ask any business owner."

    You have to be one or the other.

    Kindest regards,
    Andrew Cavanagh
  • Great post...When I was working as a freelancer a few years ago, the clients who bargained on the price I quoted them, usually turned out to be really troublesome clients...Very difficult to deal with...

    I also love what Michelle has quoted...It is so true...You don't have the power to change others...You can only change yourself...So when something wrong happens, its always best to look within and see what you could to correct the situation rather than pointing fingers at others - because you can't change them and by not looking within you have also lost the opportunity to change yourself.

    Sandy
  • I had a difficult time trying to choose between MICHAEL's letter or his wife's because they were both outstanding but since I am guilty of giving away free copies of my Project the YOUNG EXPLORERS.. that its got to be Sylvie who gets all of the praise here. She hit the nail on the head with that one observation.

    Fantastic Frank
  • Elizabeth
    Very good points, I agree. It's so true that consumers, especially the ones who complain about businesses scamming them, are the ones who are trying to take take take as much as they can.

    I've thought that same thing (that people who demand my time and products for free are the ones who are dishonest) for quite a while but am not as good at putting it into words.

    I'm really glad Sylvie brought up all that stuff about people being extremely rude when you won't help them for free.

    Although that is a negative thing, it's relieving to know that is normal. Knowing that, I probably won't feel as bad the next time I get a rude email from someone saying something to the effect of "..if you really wanted to help people you wouldn't be charging anything and if you don't give me your product for free I'll tell everyone you're a scammer, etc." I'll know that it's not just me, they probably say that to everyone who asks them to pay for something.

    It is true there are a lot of dishonest and unethical business owners. But for me, being taken advantage of by them makes me much more skeptical of making a first time purchase from someone, but it also makes me appreciate the honest ones even more.

    Not ranting and raving and complaining to everyone when someone takes advantage of you is tough. I know from experience! But you just have to think wisely about your time and respect yourself. That person has already wasted your time and money - what good will it do you to waste your own time by bashing them all over the internet?

    Instead, find a way to get over it and then focus on NOT following in their path.
  • Hey Michel,

    Good Rant! I have to say I take offense at what this person said about all business people being dishonest. Integrity is EXTREMELY important to my husband and I in our photography business. Sometimes we get the short end of the stick with clients who take advantage of us. But we bend over backwards to make sure people are thrilled with our work. And we're willing to make good for unhappy clients -- even when we know danged well they're playing dirty. We set a high standard and we aim to keep it.

    Some business people are dishonest. But I believe that's a very small percentage. By and large the vast majority of business people want to do right by their customers. They want to offer a good product at a fair price and make a decent living for their families. That's all. How's that's a bad thing for gosh sakes?

    I've found that people who squawk like this, do so because they're guilty of behaving the very same way. Like a former pastor of mine used to say -- they're busy brushing the dandruff off the other guy's shoulder so no one sees the mud on their shoes.

    Wonder who this guy has ripped off throughout his/her life?
  • I find that 99% of business people who I do business with are very honest. And that is because I choose to do business with people and businesses that inspire me, and that I feel good about.

    Thats the great thing about being involved with this Cosa -Direct Response Marketing-Nostra - (This direct response marketing thing of ours) Because we can produce superior results we can be a bit more picky with our clients.

    Michael, thanks for raising this important issue - how we do business as ethical good people not just how much money we make. And the two are of course intimately related.

    I am running a semnar http://www.visionarybusinessleaders.com in which I have chosen 7 business leaders who inspire me - including yours truly - to speak about doing busines the right way and still bringing home 10 pigs worth of bacon!

    Work with people that inpire you.
  • I have always operated in business, and lived life, under the assumption that 98% of all people...business people or otherwise...are honest and forthright.

    The problem lies with the fact that the remaining 2% are the ones that are so easy to remember ;)
  • David
    Michel,

    First class job on the new layout! I especially appreciate as an older person who needs a bit of help reading.

    I also agree with the view. Not a rant. Why is stating the truth considered a rant these days? I like Dan Kennedy's assessment that if you aren't offending someone, then you're not being aggressive enough. My Dad always called whiners victims looking for perpetrators to blame.

    Keep it up. I for one appreciate the honest look at how our perceptions affect our lives because of the clues it gives us into our mindset. No matter how much we may live in denial, forcing the light in through stories helps us to see beyond our veils.

    Thanks again,

    David
  • I completely agree with with you. I was just on a forum in itunes today, as a matter of fact, and people were having a fit in the forum about some horribly mean business people that were trying to find ways to monetize podcasts, and how dare they CHARGE for their information they are supposed to give away free! I absolutely was disgusted by the whole thread. How can their be so MANY people out there with this sense of entitlement? I really don't get it!

    It is also true that it is the people you have bent over backwards to please that turnaround and demand more from you and cause the most problems in your business. It can be very discouraging sometimes! If anyone hasn't read Any Rand's Atlas Shrugged go get a copy!

    Well, thanks for letting me RANT back. :) I feel better now!
  • @Joseph. Can we say that 98% of the people are honest 98% of the time? And unfortunately, that imperfect 2% is also often the most memorable to many.
  • In my line of business, I deal with a lot of people who are starting businesses, have fairly new families and so do not have a whole lot of money. I love helping them.

    Unfortunately, because of my low-ish prices, I end up seeing a lot of people who want everything they can get for nothing. People have advised me to raise my prices -- but then those people I'm trying to help, who are honest, can't afford what I offer.

    Sometimes it's a catch-22.

    If you're in situation like this, I think the best thing to do, from my experience, is to set clear, visible boundaries and stick by them.

    Of course, then you have people who expect you to bend your rules and gripe because you don't. But for the most part, most people will be honest and appreciate your hard work.
  • "How can their be so MANY people out there with this sense of entitlement?"

    I think the internet is more brutal then the off-line world.

    More people want free stuff on-line then off-line (not that they don't want free stuff too) but online is worse.

    Prices are way cheaper online for many products.

    The business I'm in is unbelievable, many companies are low balling each other and most are working on single digit, razor thin, net profits.

    It was not this bad when we first went online in 98, but it's got really bad now.

    Many consumers think all businesses, are making killing profits.

    Off line Retailer are taking a beating too, people are comparing online prices with retail and complaining when the go to the stores. They here a lot of (I can get this cheaper online) comments at off line retail stores.

    thanks
  • If you're in situation like this, I think the best thing to do, from my experience, is to set clear, visible boundaries and stick by them.


    Wholeheartedly agree. Set expectations, and consistently stick with those boundaries as best as you can.

    IMHO, Michel, enlarging the font kinda makes it easier to read. :)
  • Love the new layout better, great job done Michel :)
    As for your post - it's far from a rant, and I agree with you and with Sylvie. The point to make is that a few always ruin it for the majority. In this case the few rotten apples are the once that are remembered and everyone knows how easily people try to shove everything in categories, such as: business people and their sales methods are outright scam, they will do everything to sell their products and invent whatever to get the job done. So, do not trust advertisemnts and buy the cheaper products and not the one advertised on TV etc. I know because my husband never wants to buy whatever new product where advertisemnets on TV are made for.
    In your post you said that someone irritated you with what he said, meaning - you took it personally while you shouldn't have. People with this type of mentality will be always there, and there is nothing any of us could do about it to change them. The thing is, I am unable to work as a marketer and since I sold my internet business in 2003 I never felt sorry about my decision. I came back only in June of 2006 and ever since than I am trying to produce an online business without the marketing part getting involved. I do not wish to be busy with what I was busy with before the sale, and I really cannot stand marketing no more. It's hard to do things online without selling anything but this is what I am trying to achieve one way or another.
    I find your posts always very intriguing and even though I do not post a responce often I wanted to let you know that I am reading 99% of your articles.
    Thanks and wishing you with Sylvie a great weekend :)
  • Certainly, some business owners are dishonest. But I've found most are honest.

    Here's the problem in any discussion of honesty: What is honest and what is dishonest is relative to the individual.

    Take music for instance.

    Almost everybody I know has downloaded music or burned CDs illegally. I personally know people who make a habit of checking out CDs and DVDs from the library and burning copies of them.

    They know it's illegal. They know it's dishonest.

    Yet they justify it because "everybody else is doing it." Or they believe music should be free and that the "big bad record companies" should just get over it.

    Many of these same people will say business people are dishonest. But have they bothered to look in the mirror? No. Of course not.

    They were too busy trying to remove the speck of dust out of their brother's eye to notice the plank stuck in their own eye.
  • @Tatiana:

    No, I'm not taking what was said personally. Or that person specifically. I'm simply irritated by the mindset, which seems to be getting more and more pervasive. Personally, I don't care about these individuals. But I do care how what they say affects my business, my customers, and my health.
  • "every artist is a canibal every poet is a theif, all kill their inspiration then sing about thier greif" Bono- U2
    My response to this is Karma is a biatch. It'll get him in the end. DOnt sweat the small crap and its all small crap.
    Hey sorry to hear about the back if you need help i'm literally up the road from you mike in orleans
  • Hi Michel,

    Thanks for addressing my mistake :), and you're right that the mindset is getting worse. I am reading and seeing more and more off line business going under, and all the blame is given to online stores and their prices. people buy less and less off line and compare prices without taking in consideration the facts that a shop does have monthly costs getting higher and higher, the rent, the people working for the, the suppliers, etc, etc, etc. I think that the mind set of people is getting worse due to the increase in prices of everything and the decreasing income, or what one could buy with their income compared to a few years back. Everything has almost doubled in price but the monthly check has stayed the same. I guess that than and there their mind set changes into worse, and than they start checking for possibilities to get more for less, and or for free. One thing leading to another as always in everything. Don't you get depressed from these views? I do actually and would give years of my remaining life to be able to shed such thoughts off of me, and be able to see life on a brighter side and with more trust and joy and expectations. And I should get there :) Thanks again...
  • Hi Michel,

    First, I have a "bad back" too, thanks to several nasty vehicle accidents throughout my life, so I can definitely relate to that... Constant pain (anywhere in your body) sucks! And it can undoubtedly affect your mood and attitude. I pray that you get better soon!!

    Next, awesome post (as usual)!..

    You know, Sylvie is right about this being a "potentially difficult subject" to cover (for anybody), and yet you managed to approach it with not only poignant observations, sage advice and great professionalism, but also undeniable empathy for others; even in the "rant" part...

    KUDOS on that, my friend!

    Moreover, I'm a big fan of Dr. A. D. Kessler, Ph.D., who is, among many other things, the author of A Fortune At Your Feet: How You Can Get Rich, Stay Rich, and Enjoy Being Rich with Creative Real Estate wherein he describes providing "people benefits" as his preferred method of operation in business and as the main ingredient to his extarordinary success in life.

    Basically, according to Dr. Kessler, in real estate, "people benefits" are achieved by creating win / win real estate transactions where "all" parties benefit, which is subjective to each entity involved (i.e., what is perceived as "beneficial" to me may not be considered as such by you).

    And he aspired to provide "people benefits" to as many "people" as he could in his business, which is why he is so successful in life.

    Of course, this philosophy can be used effectively in every other type of industry also. And you captured that point very well when you said, "I'm a capitalist through and through, and I believe in win-win. I don't see anything wrong with mutually beneficial transactions, which is what business is and should be, in my opinion."

    Now, I don't know if you're a fan of Dr. Kessler or not, but it sure sounds like you have a similar concept of doing business, which is probably why you're so successful at what you do.

    Thanks for being so forthright in your dealings and God bless you and yours in all things!

    Best Regards,

    Michael Brock
  • As with most walks of life, there exists honesty and dishonesty, but to make a sweeping, generalist statement like that shows a distinct lack of awareness, knowledge, respect and integrity.

    I am currently reading "The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People" by Stephen R. Covey, and his book goes into huge detail about mindset and attitude being the key to happiness and success (in life as well as in other pursuits). He talks about having to almost re-program our brain and though patterns, as influences such as parents, friends and associates can often hugely influence the way you see things.

    I think this is a prime example of this, as emotions such as jealousy and envy can often perpetuate into this sort of behavior and subsequently this type of comment. To generalise by saying "All business people are dishonest" shows a lack of understanding and in many ways ambition.

    I have also come across "freebie hunters" recently with one of my businesses, however no mater how much free value you add to the paid service, sometimes its impossible to please people, as its about them changing their behaviors and lifestyle, not just their opinions... it runs deeper than that.

    Just my 2 cents...

    By the way, I like the new layout Michel, clearer, cleaner and definitely less 'busy'. There's an important lesson here for all us, which is never stop listening to your customers.
  • Hey Michel,

    Bravo! Well said!

    I am noticing the trend towards "entitlement" as well, and I'm not sure if it's the "moving the free line" trend, or the age old resentment of the less fortunate of the more fortunate.

    I concur with everything you said, as well as Michelle Mac, and Sylvie's post, too (though I haven't had too many "freebie" issues - I WILL be pasting her customer support reply into my support templates! Thanks!)

    I've also had similar experiences as far as Sylvie's part on generosity. Not just marketers, across many industries. Reading her post reminds me of the generosity the Fortins have shown me; it's an inspiration to me to pay it forward when the opportunity arises. Thanks, guys!

    Howard

    P.S. Like the cleaner blog look. No more ebay auctions?

    P.P.S. Hope the back thing isn't hampering your drumming. If you're sidelined from drums for a while, Sylvie may come home one day to find you bangin on the pots and pans!
  • Hi Michel

    Your rant fingers a pervasive and invasive mindset with many forms. Here's a copywriting example you've alluded to in previous posts. It's the one where a client chips away at the agreed deal with 'a bit more of this' and 'a bit more of that' - and all the while exhausting the goodwill that was implicit in the original deal.

    You could say there's a 'moral dishonesty' operating in the guise of 'being good at business'. But there's also a moral bankruptcy in those who take advantage of the more informal aspects of business dealings. Let's face it: business people are first and foremost 'PEOPLE' - people who want to build relationships by getting on well with clients.

    Sadly, this informality can be abused to the extent that, unless something is agreed in the finest detail regarding prices and service levels, gentleman's agreements are seen as weak, old-fashioned and there to be taken advantage of. The outcome? More caution, certainly. More red tape. Less trust. By smoking out 'dishonest business people', we're being forced to make the world of business a progressively sadder place.

    Mike Beeson
    Buzzwords copywriting agency
    Manchester, England
  • Nice post, Michel. My first association was with Seth's "All marketers are liars". There are many people who want everything for free, but the funny thing is they would never work for free themselves.

    On the new design: I usually read you through RSS, but anyway it's nice
  • "seeing more and more off line business going under, and all the blame is given to online stores and their prices"

    The low price/everything should be free mentality is hurting on-line business too.

    From my research, the survival rate of an on-line business is much worse then off-line. Since the 10 years we've been online, 95% of all the business in my industry are gone or sold out.

    We live in a walmart generation and if you sell a consumable/commodity type of product, you're in for a tough battle.

    thanks.
  • @Ryan. That's funny that you bring up the example of burning CD's. That's actually what I was thinking of when saying 98% of people are honest 98% of the time.

    I've only met one other person who won't burn/download music or movies on principle.
  • Darwin
    The problem with making a global or universal statement with "ALL" is that if the speaker becomes a business person that speaker is included in the "ALL" so it means that the speaker also would be dishonest.
  • I think that it is tempting to overstate the truth i.e. hype things up when you may be frustrated with dealing with resistant freebie seeking customers.

    Possibly, some marketers over emphasise how easy it may be or how effective something will be if the customer buys their product or solution?

    Say you work really hard providing content and information leading up to a product introduction to your readers or potential consumers (maybe for months) and it seems like that all they want is for you to give them more for free.

    This could be the tipping point between marketing honestly and simply doing what ever it might take to get them to buy?

    Not that I have been in this situation, but I imagine that the hard work that especially bloggers put in, could result in this scenario happening.
  • There will always be people who are convinced all business people are dishonest. Others say the same thing about lawyers, doctors, plumbers, and bosses. The bigger picture is that you cannot allow such comments to steal away one minute of your health, your happiness, or your life.

    The blog looks great, by the way. Well done!

    Siriol
  • Bravo.

    I run into this all the time when debating mp3 piracy. They feel they should get the songs for free because 'The Record Companies Exploit the Artists'.

    Oh really? If it weren't for an evil record company, you would have never heard of 'em.

    If it weren't for an evil record company, even if you had heard of 'em, the songs would sound like complete crap (have you ever heard what music sounds like when recorded in a garage) and you probably wouldn't buy it anyhow.

    If it weren't for an evil record company, you wouldn't have the access to music you now have.

    If it weren't for an evil record company, thousands of people wouldn't have jobs.

    Damn those evil record companies...how dare they!
  • @Stephen - Yep, illegally burning music really bothers me. I have family members who burn CDs/DVDs and then give them as gifts. I hate that. It really puts me in an awkward situation.

    Do you reject the gift and tell the giver he/she has broken the law? Or do you just play along, put the "gift" on the shelf, and ignore it?

    I usually opt for Choice #2 because I've tried in the past to discuss this issue with poor results. The thief has already justified his behavior and is not convinced he is doing anything wrong.
  • Michel,

    I have some thoughts on your new blog design.

    Now I think it is less cluttered, at least on the post page where I am now.

    I always liked your header area and it seems the same as before i.e. perfectly fine.

    The hover-over links in the sidebar are not so great. I would go with bright blue underlined as you hover over them rather than make them look dull grey.

    Also, the footer is a big expanse of grey, why not carry over your nice bright blue header concept to the footer too?
  • Nicely said, Michel.

    We run into these "something-for-nothing thinkers" a LOT in the personal development niche, because there is a school of thought that says "anything spiritual (i.e. personal growth, Universal laws, metaphysics, or any broadly related topics) should be FREE".

    We tell them they can spend their time and energy digging up all the classic info they can handle for free, online or at the library -- OR, they can save that non-renewable resource of time, SPEND that renewable resource of money (which is also just energy anyhow) and get access to it immediately.

    It's a personal choice... and certainly nothing to complain about, because the world can't exist on a one-way slant (all taking and no giving in exchange).

    cheers
    Heather Vale
  • I am in the make money online internet business and the question you asked sums up everyone's fear. "Are all business people dishonest?" The lack of integrity has killed the trust of business. "Do not do anything immoral or unethical." Quote Lieutenant Ian
    Vaughn. This is what LT Vaughn tells all police officers that work under him. He states if you follow this in all aspects of your life you will have no worries. This should also be applied to all businesses. Do not do anything immoral or unethical
  • @Greg - I agree with your advice to not do anything immoral or unethical. But then you must ask the question: according to what or whom? Where there is no law, there is no trespass. And if there is no law or standard, then I am a law unto myself.
  • People are stressed out and distrusting.

    I mean really, it seems like if you don't watch your back, someone is going to take you for a ride.

    thanks.
  • Michel

    I'm not going to talk about the "article", just your "rant"...

    In short, you're so right!

    People who moan and groan about unethical business people and say that things should be free (or cheaper) are the self same whiners who say that they never talk to salespeople even if this means that they end up buying the wrong products and solutions at the wrong prices...

    Far too many people spend far too much time finding ways to chuck the blame for their failures at someone else...

    ... they spend all night watching hours worth of TV rather than going to night school but then blame their upbringing for their lack of education...

    ... they say that they have a slow metabolic rate yet they never get off their rear end and go to the gym...

    I could go on.

    One of the first personal development audios that I ever heard was by Jim Rohn. I cannot remember his exact words now but he was talking about prices and he said that most people moaned about things being too expensive. He pointed out that there was nothing they could do about this and said that they ought to face up to the fact that they did not earn enough.

    A great lesson.

    My belief is that people often have a pop at marketers, business people and salepeople to make up for their own poor decisions and lack of positive action...

    On a similar rant at poorly thought through generalisations against business people, I wrote last week about an article in The Evening Standard about salespeople and The (UK) Apprentice show. You can see the whole article and my response, "People Think Salespeople Are Stupid", in the link I have shown to my website...

    Gavin
  • Kirk
    I know I'm posting very late but I recently subscribed to this feed and just read the posting.

    I think Phil is closest to the mark. In my experience, people are desperate and afraid. People really want to believe that what we sell is what we say it is AND what they want BUT they are extremely fearful that they are being deceived.

    I've been in sales for years now (first furniture and now construction) and notice two trends with difficult customers. The first is as I've stated. Customers approach with the expectation that they are going to be ripped off - and that might be what their experience has taught them in the past. I could show you an addition on my aunt's house for which someone should be penalized. In these cases one initial goal is to determine if I can win their trust and deliver on their expectations. Some people, likely similar to whomever thinks all salespeople are dishonest, might be too damaged to get through to. That's what I need to figure out. But I try to approach with care and consideration since some have actually been victims of the dishonest.

    The second trend I notice is what I call the Do-It-Yourself-Cable-TV trend. So many programs are out there telling people what do to and then we end up with them. Of course, they don't know what they're doing and refuse to listen to the voice of experience. So here I have to find a way to kindly expose ignorance in order that they start looking for me to solve their problem, which is what I'm there for in the first place.

    In both of these scenarios, the best part is that I know my product is excellent and that I will deliver. It's just working through customer woundedness that takes the work. So the challenge is in discerning who might turn away from the past and become workable customers and who will hold tightly to their wrongs.
  • I had a construction business years ago with my father. My Dad had a great reputation and we were always the highest price.

    I used to save articles in the trade magazines about home owners who got ripped off, or other horror stories and show these to customers who brought up price or were getting other estimates.

    Most of our work was through word-of-mouth, so most jobs were an easy sell. Our main problem was finding employees who took pride and their work (and could pass a drug test).

    I still have friends in the construction business. And see their current problems. With all the Home Depots, Lowes, etc. popping up everywhere a lot of people think they can do it themselves or want to check material prices so they can see what (they think) you're making off them.

    Some of my friends try to concentrate on jobs the home owners would never try, like concrete and try to target busy people with money who have no time. One of my friends makes good money buying land a putting up modular homes then selling them.

    thanks
  • Here's an interesting article by John Reese rebutting the same kind of attitude I spoke about in my article:

    http://www.income.com/blog/2008/06/19/wake-up-c...
  • David
    I've been in sales for 20+ years ands most business people are dishonest FACT. Keep living in your fantasy world people because in reality most c.e.o's and business people are lying,cheating crooks. Anyone who posted on here that most business people are honest are full of shit and just plain stupid.
  • Philip
    The sentence you quote at the beginning Michel is a common expression in the UK

    'There's no such thing as an honest business man - ask an accountant'

    Seems to me you all got your knickers in a twist over nothing. Claiming personal expenses as business expenses is pretty common place.

    Meanwhile,

    Marcia Yudkin on her site claims to be one of the world's best copywriters - I hardly call that honest do you?

    I've read those copywriter boards and the lies are pretty damn obvious, everyones a goddam expert? Everyone is the worlds best? So why are they posting on forums, devising courses and not doing ANY actual copywriting?

    I agree with David, who you trying to kid?
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